So true, those lyrics are potent anti-religion stuff, I am surprised more people do not call him the Satan of pop music - he wrote absolutely gorgeous songs about there not being a god. Sort of heavenly sounding anti-heaven music.
Well when I was a kid back in the 1950's in Catholic School they taught us that the best that Protestants could hope for was not to get into heaven, but into Purgatory, a half way place between Heaven and Hell. This applied to the Born Agin types who now sometimes say Catholics aren't even Christians. It applies to those who follow Tammy Faye, or Falwell, the Reverend Billy Bob or Jonnie Come Latelies like Joseph Smith. The Born Agin aren't the only ones who can play these games. Maybe we can be like Ireland and have the Catholics vs the Protestants or maybe even a three way civil war like Yugoslavia. Way to go Frist. Anything to get those poor befuddled working class folks to vote for the fat cat Republicans. Keep them focused on their rewards in the afterlife as the poor Christians die of high blood pressure, diabetes and other infirmaties without health insurance. Frist of course is a blue blood Harvard educated phsysician who is playing a game with Jeb (remember the Shiavo fiasco) as to who can be the most fundamentalist. I wonder if Jeb and Frist have bought their dude ranch props yet for 2008.
i'm not trying to make this a holy war...but from my perspective it's sad. because the thoughts of "brotherhood of man" and "love you enemies" rolled of the tongue of Christ long before John Lennon was a thought. I suppose, in many ways, the church has lost sight of that. And I understand why people have negative opinions about organized religion. Just sad from my perspective because the failings of the church get imparted on God. having said all that...please don't use Jesus Christ as a political tool, GOP. thanks in advance.
The irony of it all. Aren't the Democrats known as bleeding heart liberals? How can you both be a bleeding heart liberal who wants to give public entitlements to the poor and at the same time be anti-God? If Jesus was alive would he really be advocating guns, hunting down illegal immigrants, and supporting big business? Really? Would he be pro-war and advocating a strong military position? Would he really help lead the Dixiecrats into the Republican party because he hated the idea of integrating little negro children into the school system and letting them drink at the same water fountains?
I just don't see how people that control the White House, Senate, House, and have their party appoint 7 of 9 Supreme Court Justices can claim they are being oppressed.
I've seen some excellent posts in here, from both sides. I've commented on this issue before, although I can't remember the thread(s?). REIT, this one really got my attention. I'm old enough, like AggieRocket, and a couple of others, to have seen the Whites Only restrooms and water fountains... and rode on buses with the Blacks jammed in the back. Some of the folks here need to remember that this isn't really about religion, or a double handfull of judicial nominees being blocked. This is all about political posturing from Frist and his cronies, with the tacit support of the White House. It's all about the far right GOP leadership being willing to throw away generations of comity and tradition in the United States Senate for a cheap political power grab. As John McCain realizes, his own party did the same thing during Clinton's time in office, and Democrats didn't threaten to do this. As CBFC said, this, added to everything else the right wing Republican extremists are doing, will lead to their downfall. After they lose their majority, as they will, sooner or later, they will be the first (or should I say the frist?) to whine and complain about the rules they are preparing to toss away. They disgust me. They did the same to the Texas Senate, and they're doing it here. And they will pay for their cheap victory. Keep D&D Civil!!
I remember talking to a Lutheran Pastor who was running for state rep. as a Democrat at a Kerry rally. He was running in a rural district and was getting beat up in the local polls by his conservative Repub. opponent who kept on talking harping about gays and how the Democrats wanted to destroy traditional families. I told him he should remember that Jesus was the radical liberal of his time who challenged the traditional value system and power structure of his time. I didn't follow up with his race so I don't know if he followed my advice but he won his race.
Sishir Chang- Not much time sorry, will try later, But yes, definately yes. Free expression is free expression. And it should be just as the Constitution grants these liberties. Just because we are in a post-Christian time in America we don't change the freedoms granted by the Constitution. Naked pregnant women and druid symbols and satanist pentagrams are free expressions of religion. These issues might be controversial but when there is conflict it should be decided by local authorities or states legislatures. The Constitution protects us from federal clamps on religious freedom. Now if a group of Christians wanted to erect a statue of Mary on a school campus in Houston and the school was ok with it I would not fight it, and I am not Catholic. Someone probably would fight it and hopefully the courts would rule that it is the free expression of the religious beliefs of the school. However if the school did not approve of the statue they should not be forced to allow it. If a school wants to say prayers or read religious books then don't prohibit them. If they don't want to don't force them. I think we could live with religious freedom. It would present some very serious problems because we are extremely divided on religion in this country today. In times past Christianity was very much accepted and implied in being American. Today there would be more division and dissention with regard to religion. But either we follow the Constitution allow for free expression and prupose to work through the problems or we abandon the Constitution and impose religious restriction. As we drift from the protection of the Constitution it gets scary. And read Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists to understand the context of his letter and why he wrote that phrase in the letter 'Separation of church and state' After you read the entire letter you will see he used the phrase to mean the opposite of how it is used today. Most people even believe that phrase is in the Constitution. We are like sheep. Can't check out those other quotes now, but I will make an effort.
Max, Sorry, but I sent you an email and would appreciate you looking at it. I just don't know how often you check your bbs account. Thank you.
Deckard: You're almost always right where I'm concerned, but here you're wrong. This isn't about filibusters or the nuclear option. This IS about religion. This is about the GOP deciding that they have such a corner on the Christian faith that they get to decide that one party is pro-God and one party is anti-God. This stuff is outrageous. They have gone too far. By a mile. Max responded well by asking the GOP not to use Jesus as a political tool , but he's several years too late. The last election was won by doing EXACTLY that and it's no surprise they've gotten greedier as a result. It's no surprise that they've decided they have a lock on God. Not all of the GOP are religious hypocrites, but the ones advocating this campaign are definitely religious hypocrites. Bill Frist is definitely a religious hypocrite. And he obviously doesn't even believe in God, because if he did he would know this campaign would offend Him. I call on all my religious Republican friends to repudiate this blatant, partisan grab at religious righteousness. Refman and I had it out right after 9/11 when I suggested the GOP was using the tragedy for political gain. He was offended then that I would suggest such a thing, but I think we all know how that turned out. They ran a whole convention around it and after that they ran a campaign around it. And, since then, it's gotten considerably worse. Now we're meant to understand that Christ bled Republican blood and that the Democrats are Pharisees. And, by extension, that any Christian Democrat is a Judas. Make no mistake. If there is a hell, these hypocrites are going there. Any Republican Christians here disagree? Because, really, sincerely, that would surprise me. These guys have gone so far past the line I can't even believe it. If I was a Christian I would be offended to my greatest depths. There are sincere Christians here. Max and twhy among them. I can't believe for a minute they'd follow these charlatans. The Republican leadership who are running this campaign are anti-America, anti-Democracy and anti-Christian. Discuss.
Reform Jewish Movement Calls on Senator Frist to Repudiate Claim That Judicial Nominees are Victims of a "Filibuster Against Faith" http://rac.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=1119&pge_prg_id=5704&pge_id=1001 Saperstein: Support for "Justice Sunday" Event is Disingenuous, Dangerous, and Demagogic Contact: Alexis Rice or Emily Kane 202.387.2800 Weekend: 202.841.2360 WASHINGTON, April 15, 2005 –In response to Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist’s plan to join a telecast whose organizing theme is that those who oppose some of President Bush’s judicial nominees are engaged in an assault on “people of faith,” Rabbi David Saperstein, Director of the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, issued the following statement: The news that Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist plans to join a telecast whose organizing theme is that those who oppose some of President Bush’s judicial nominees are engaged in an assault on “people of faith” is more than troubling; it is disingenuous, dangerous, and demagogic._ We call on him to reconsider his decision to appear on the telecast and to forcefully disassociate himself from this outrageous claim._ Senator Frist must not give legitimacy to those who claim they hold a monopoly on faith. They do not._ They assert, in the words of Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council and organizer of the telecast, that there is a vast conspiracy by the courts “to rob us of our Christian heritage and our religious freedoms.”_ There is no such conspiracy._ They have been unable to ram through the most extreme of the President’s nominees, and now they are spinning new claims out of thin air.__ Alas, this is not an isolated incident._ This past week, the Christian Coalition convened a conference in Washington entitled, "Confronting the Judicial War on Faith."_ Their special guest speaker was the House Majority Leader, Rep. Tom Delay._ When leaders of the Republican Party lend their imprimatur to such outrageous claims, including, at the conference, calls for mass impeachment of Federal Judges, it should be of deep concern to all who care about religion._ It should also be of concern to President Bush whose silence, in the wake of the claims made both at the conference in Washington and in the upcoming telecast, is alarming. The telecast is scheduled to take place on the second night of the Passover holiday, when Jews around the world gather together to celebrate our religious freedom._ It was in part for exactly such freedom that we fled Egypt._ It was in part for exactly such freedom that so many of us came to this great land._ And it is in very large part because of exactly such freedom that we and our neighbors here have built a nation uniquely welcoming to people of faith – of all faiths._ We believe Senator Frist knows these things as well._ His association with the scheduled telecast is, in a word, shameful._ We call upon to him to disassociate himself from the claim that the Senate is participating in a filibuster against faith, and to withdraw his participation from the April 24th event. ###_ The Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism is the Washington office of the Union for Reform Judaism, whose more than 900 congregations across North America encompass 1.5 million Reform Jews, and the Central Conference of American Rabbis, whose membership includes_more than_1800 Reform rabbis._
Personally, Batman, I think it's every bit as dangerous to call Republicans evil and unworthy of God as it is to call Democrats the same. There are planks of both platforms that make me sick to my stomach. And there are just disagreements I have with the solutions devised for problems we all agree exist. I don't see the Democrats, as a whole, as some Christ-like group. I don't see the Republicans, as a whole, as some Christ-like group. So the idea that either one would say, "hey, we're more like Jesus than they are," makes me want to throw up.
The most disturbing thing here is that Anthony Perkins has beceom president of the Family Research Council! WTF! I can just see the council going over his CV... "well, it says here he had a minor role in the film Psycho... did any of y'all see that? No, me either. That was probably just something in his youth." Anthony will be going all like shower scene on our liberal asses when we least expect it, and don't forget that dude wore a dress at the end of that movie when he came at the cops with a big kitchen knife. Weird times.
just checked TheSmokingGun.com and read Mr. Perkins' application for the position. turns out he cites his relationship with his mother as the base for his inner strength. odd.
Batman, I don't think we disagree here. Not by much. Of course this is an attempt, and an effective one, to use this issue to further solidify the base of the fundamentalist, far-right extremists who run the GOP. Where we differ is that what Frist and company are doing to achieve their goal is worse, in the long run, than the pandering to the religious right. The throwing away of the minority party's ability to use the filibuster to make itself heard, and to have some impact, regardless of the majority in Congress of the other side, something the GOP embraced the long years when they were in the minority, is as bad or worse than the judges they hope to put in lifetime positions. I could be wrong, however. What they want is to pack the courts with extremists, especially the Supreme Court, and have them there with lifetime appointments. FDR attempted something similar before WWII, in an effort to advance his political agenda. It was wrong then, and it is wrong now. Keep D&D Civil!!
Neither party is a "Christ-like group", but at least Democrats aren't using religion (or a perceived lack thereof) to condemn the other party.
I think Max was referring to me recently saying the D party more closely followed Christ's teachings. The part he left out was that I said that in retaliation for years and years of R's condemning D's as being against religion. I'm sorry if that makes Max want to throw up, but if one party bangs away at such an incredibly inappropriate and offensive argument for, say, twenty or more years, they ought not to be surprised when the other party fights back a little. If this kind of stuff really makes Max sick I have no idea how he could self identify with the party that has ridden this sickening (I agree) strategy to their last several victories.
It becomes a matter of what is more offensive. Frist took religion, something we should use ourselves and our lives for, and he tried to use religion against another group. As Max, RIET, and others have pointed out, Jesus talked about loving your enemy, coming together, loving your neighbors, etc. Yet Frist has taken the very religion that based on those teachings, and tried to use that religion to divide. He has attempted to use that religion to seperate and push apart, etc. To me, it is sickening. Almost all politicians use religion for reasons other than spititual well-being. Howard Dean may be a religious man, but he didn't wear it around like a prize until he thought he needed to politically. That was using religion as well. It was wrong, in my opinion. But Howard Dean nor any Democrat in recent history, to my knowledge, has tried to use religion for a purpose opposed to the teachings of that religion. There is a difference. Frist should be ashamed. He should be shamed in the halls of congress, and on the pews of his church.
