No, sorry, pre-emptive damage control post denied. Let's go to the factual record: Here's a new one, Ric on the Titans Quarterback: here's the old stuff, when leadership ruled his world! Time passes.....things happen Now here is Ric - EVOLVING!!!!!!!!! "I hath truly WORKETHED MIRACLES BY EVOLVING RIC'S MIND" -Vince of Nazereth
Ric -- what happened in that timeframe to make you change your mind? you clearly ONCE thought intangibles were real and affected how a player played. you clearly ONCE thought that leadership was real and an important quality for a player/QB to have. what happened??? you certainly have the right to change your mind. I have a billion times. but what happened that made you change your mind about these sorts of things. things that to me almost seem inarguable. i can not ever recall anyone asserting that leadership in sports or in any other walk of life was false or meaningless.
Desert Scar, I've seen enough of him that I think he has what it takes to be a leader and everything. He didn't win a huge number of games in college, but he went in and won a game vs Arkansas his senior year on the road, won a game vs Tennessee on the road and went in almost won a game in Florida (a questionable excessive celebration actually kept them from having the chance to go for 2 and get the win without going to overtime.. .might have missed it, but might have made it). He didn't win a ton of games, but given the situation he was in and what I've seen of him I do think he is a leader. That is my opinion and we will see what happens after he and the other rookies get some more experience. As for his play, I think he made steady improvement. According to this, he is the first rookie to throw for multiple TDS in each of his first four gameshttp://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/preview?gid=20061231007&prov=ap The last game of the year, he did get hit and go out for some of the game. I don't know if the result would have been different or not if he hadn't have left the game for some plays and all. He threw an INT after he came back in and didnt look spectacular, but did get looking good again towards the end of regulation. I think you have to take into account that he only had 5 games and he had played in ZERO games before his first start. Unlike Vince, he didn't play in a couple games before his first start. If we just took Vince's first 5 games, he'd have a losing record as well. He took over a 7-4 team, but was the team he took over actually that good at the time he took them over? Early on in the year, they were winning and the defense was getting quite a bit of publicity. The defense wasn't shutting down everyone at the end of the year. In fact, the defensive coordinator ended up being fired after the year was over. He lost his first game vs Seattle. It is normal to not play perfect the first game. You are going to make some mistakes. Just have to learn from them early on and have less with experience. The next week they played San Diego and San Diego ended up scoring 48 pts. It would have been tough for anyone to win that game with the lead San Diego got out to early. I think he showed improvement in that game compared to his first and had a 3rd quarter where he really showed his skills and actually got them back into the game somewhat even though the final score ended up not being close. They then beat Arizona and Cincy. Particularly, in the Arizona game he showed off that arm that he has with an amazing long TD pass. I think he has the tools he needs to be solid QB. The San Francisco was a tough loss that I certainly wish they had won (he did miss part of that game after going out after getting hit). I did like what I saw when he lead them at the end down the field and the team scored with under 2 minutes left to tie it up. I believe it was an 80 yard drive. I think he showed poise to go down and get the points to score. Still, yes it was a loss. The Cincy game also featured a key 99 yard drive so he did show some poise. Overall, I think he improved as he got more experience and did well. I think you have to take into account that when we were watching him, it was his first five games as opposed to Vince who by the end had played in more games and had more experience. Check out the points scored by the opposing team in the early games when they had all those wins compared to later in the season http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=162 Just my thoughts I know you have your opinion, just mine on his play. Now I'll get back more to the topic at hand. As for Bush, to be honest I didn't really watch him closely this year. I'm not making the argument he should or shouldn’t be rookie of the year, just pointing out that I think his catches have to be considered. I didn't watch him closely enough to comment on his rushing skills.
Opps messed those links up I think and for the record no I don't think he played perfect, but I think he did well for someone in his first 5 starts and improved what where he was in his first start. My opinion on that matter... (the multiple td thing) http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/preview?gid=20061231007&prov=ap and the schedule http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=162 and the links I was looking at to remember how long the drives were http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20061224_CIN@DEN http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20061231_SF@DEN
dessert scar, this link explains what I mean. http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=sports&id=4919749 According to that link they allowed 44 points in the first 6 games, the fewest since the 16 game season started. That got them off to a 5-1 start. they were 7-4 when he took over, but it isn't like they were playing great in the games right before he took over (lost 3 of 5 before he took over). Their record looked so good, but was that represenative of hwo the team was playing when he took over or a result of one of the best defensive starts in NFL history?
Yeah. I'm making all of this up. Nobody is in Clutchfans wanting the Houston Texans to lose. It's all over this board. I'm going to let them have it plain and simple. It will be relentless. Go Houston.
The thing with Young is that I'm actually impressed with the fact that he did win games. His running stats were quite good, his passing stats weren't spectacular, but that can improve. I just think sometimes everyone gets in arguments because some feel that people give him too much credit for the wins and others might want to not give him enough credit. It is probably somewhere in between the two. (Oh, and sorry for the Cutler stuff.. but hey Vince fans should know as much as anyone about giving credit to the player you are a fan of and everything I think plenty of Vince fans would talk about why their favorite NFL rookie qb did things that they think show he'll be a great QB and I'll talk about what my favorite NFL rookie qb did that impressed me and gave me reason to continue to think he'll be a great NFL qb Even if I know that I'm one of the very few on this board who still think he has the chance to end up the best qb from the draft. I'm used to it though, I also heard from a friend about how Reggie McNeal would be drafted higher. )
The thing that is most impressive about Vince Young is his inability to become flustered. The guy handles pressure very, very well... I think the reason for this is because he probably doesnt ever over-think anything. Probably not a very analytical guy...
I think cutler will be very good, due to his arm strength and zip on the ball. But the thing about Vince is all people talked about pre draft was his throwing motion sucks, he is a 2-3 year project at QB, blah blah. An athlete only playing QB etc.... When I knew from watching him extensively in college that he was special, and felt he was the best player/talent in the draft. The 8-5 mark as a starter is very gratifying as a fan of his simply because of idiots like Hoge who called him a 2nd day QB or a project, etc.
I don't know, SD had relaxed a bit and I remember that white TE helped him on a couple of those TD passes. Not taking anything away from him, he looks like he'll be ok and I think he's lucky to be hanging around Shanahan. And, Denver was already a decent team before him.
I'm not an expert enough to say what arm motion will or will not work. I just know when I see an arm like Cutler I am impressed by how strong it is and his ability to make any pass. I'm also impressed by the ability of Vince to make plays. He may not have the best passing stats this year (some of that is probably due to the team he was on) and like you said some didn't like his throwing motion, but he has made plays. Vince is someone that I certainly didn't expect to be a 2nd day pick. I thought it might take a while before his passing game gets to be as good as it can get (which most rookies aren't great from day 1 and improve). He came out in year 1 though and had a winning record in his starts. I didn't expect Cutler to be starting this year. I think just getting out there and getting experience is huge and both of the players have experience that will be helpful down the road. Neither was perfect. I think both showed they have a bright future. We got to see Vince in more games than Jay, but in the time Jay played I think he showed his potential. I think Vince showed he can play in the league. We will see how he improves in the next few years and if he becomes an elite qb. Many expected it to take him a few years to get really good, he is probably ahead of the schedule many would have guessed and has the potential to keep improving. He could become quite a scary player if he keeps it up. I'm a big Cutler fan, so like Young fans, I may be biased at times. I'm a big Cutler fan and think he has a good chance of ending up the most successful qb and many think Vince will end up the most successful qb. I was very happy that Jay ended up in a quality organization and think that will help him to be successful and Vince also has a good chance of being successful in Tennessee. I think they both have a good chance of having very successful careers. It is sometimes hard to compare the two because they play very different styles. I've said that I thought and still do believe that Jay will be the most successful qb from the draft. Obviously, I am a Cutler fan so I may be biased and all, but that is my opinion and obviously many people have a different opinion. From a passing standpoint, I think Jay will end up the best, but obviously you have to take into account the ability of Vince to run as well. Maybe Vince ends up being a better passer, I think Jay is the better passer, but of course anything is possible. It is hard to compare the two since it is a different style, but in the end the goal for both is to win games in the NFL and championships and I think both styles have a good chance of being successful. Jay might end up having a better passing career, while Vince doesn't have quite as good a passing career but the ability to run makes him quite a dangerous player because you have to watch out for running as well as passing. Of course, it could also turn out that Vince ends up a really great passer (possibly better than Jay). Too early to tell, just my opinion that Jay has a great arm and will be a great passer. I don't really care which style they play, if they both end up with some championships they will both have had very successful careers. As for Cutler, he has a great arm and as someone that watched Cutler for four years in college it was great when I finally saw him get some attention. Just like it was gratifying for Vince fans to see him do well, it was gratifying for me to see Cutler get drafted in the first round and then have the Broncos show enough faith in him to have him start towards the end of his first NFL season. I think before people I knew probably thought I was crazy to think Cutler would be drafted ahead of someone like Reggie McNeal even because most the country didn't watch him much. I was very happy when he finally got recognition.
I hear some people say that the Giants are the ones that lost the game vs the Titans and blew the lead So if we give Vince the credit for the comeback, I think we can also give Jay some credit for the plays he did make in the 3rd especially of that game When I watched it, it just seemed like Denver made some plays at that point in the game. Did Jay have some help from some other players making catches? Yes, he did. An amazing 60 yard field goal certainly helped keep Vince's streak alive, so yes other players do provide some help as well.
Obviously, the 60 yard field goal wasn't a pass or anything from Vince, so a little different than help on a TD catch... just saying sometimes players get help from the wrs etc that make great plays, but in the end people tend to just care that it was a TD or that the qb took them to a win (even if it took an amazing play by someone else on the team). In this particular case, one of the TD passes was an amazing play on the ball to make the catch.. the other one seemed like a solid pass to me to the endzone. My main point in that game is, sometimes a loss isn't the fault of the qb. San Diego was quite impressive and scored 48 in that game. I think it'd have been tough for Vince or any qb to win that one the way it was going. Obviously, some scoring relates to the qb as far as how long they extend drives and all, but he did throw zero interceptions in that game, so they weren't scoring off of INTS. He did have 3 fumbles, but thankfully only one was lost. I think fumbles, etc should improve with time. I can't recall exactly what each of these were from, but fumbles as a result of the snap should def. improve with time because he wasn't really used to taking snaps from the starting center. He got the starting job late in the year.
and the stats http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20061210_DEN@SD I bring up the Giants game because saying San Diego relaxed is kind of like people saying that the Giants screwed up and that is why Vince won or something.
One more post and I'll stop posting so much in this thread I'm not saying I actually say that Vince shouldn't get the credit because the Giants must have relaxed or something.. just meant that it is frustrating to hear the Chargers relaxed as part of the reason for why the Broncos made some plays.. I can see how it must be frustrated for Vince fans that hear that in response to how the Titans won the Giants game, instead of just that Vince played great.
I'm sorry, but saying that leadership is a "made-up quality" and "doesn't exist" seems to me a desperate reach at rationalizing an increasingly indefensible position. I try to learn something from everyone I read on here. But, "leadership is a made-up quality" is one of the stupidest, most real-life-ignorant statements I've ever seen.
Rocket Fan, you could be right that Cutler is the best of the trio. I think he is cleary more talented in raw ability than Leinart. But while Leinart is an a**, he has reasonable tools and is totally unflappable. VY is unflappable and has amazing physical gifts for an NFL QB, but has longer to go as a pocket passer in a pro offense than the other two. But if I were a Denver fan I would be concerned about Cutler being flappable. Basicially less able to handle the highest expectations. It is one thing to win when everyone expects you to lose (a couple of big games at Vandy), it is another to win and execute when everybody expects you to win. The next two years Denver will expect Cutler to be unflabble and win--since Elway that place has been a QB killer in terms of pressure. [I think he largely got a free pass for his 2-3 record and major mistakes in two of those losses because he is a rookie and because so many wanted to blame Plummer.] On a side note finally people are calling Eli Manning for his lack of performance and blunders when the pressure rises. Eli also came from a college team without great expectations, a few great games and people think he is a great player and great leader. Very different than the Tenn pressure cooker Peyton was in--I have never understood the honeymoon Eli has gotten, particularly in NY. Cutler could be like Eli, more external pressure (teammates, media, fans) and more game pressure (playoffs, big games) he starts to tighten up or fold. I can say for sure this doesn't happen to VY or ML, they may make bad plays, but not because they are nervous, tense or can't handle intense game situations.
Vince won in college, but you could say the same thing about the Titans winning this year when everyone expected them to lose. You could say it is one thing to win on the NFL when everyone expects you to lose, but another to win when expected to win. Yes, he did it at Texas, but this is the NFL and everything so I suppose things need to be shown on the NFL level. My feelings on wins in college is that it is much easier to win when you are on one of the best teams in the country. From watching Jay's career, I think he is a leader and has poise. Do you think you'd have been able to tell that Vince was a leader and had poise even if he were on a team that wasn't one of the top teams and expected to win? You probably would have been able to tell and I think Jay showed much poise and everything. Actually, if you followed Jay's games this year, the ability to come right back and make a play following a mistake is something that people commented on. He seems relaxed out there and not flustered too much by things. He might not have had quite the same pressure in college, but if anything I think it helps him. He was on a team where often times they weren't the favorite and he had to have the ability to not get too frustrated and come back out the next week and keep playing well and everything. He might not have had the same pressure to win, but that doesn't mean he isn't a leader or can't win. Given time, I think he'll display that in the NFL. We'll have to see how things look in a few years.
My point, Vince is clearly a leader, but had he been in a similiar situation to Jay coming into the draft where he hadn't won a ton of games, you'd have people wondering if he is a leader as well. Yes, you can't just assume he'll handle playoff pressure well, just saying that people also have to realize that there is a good chance that there are players at schools that didn't have a ton of success that also are great leaders. I'd think there is a pretty good chance you would have seen things in Vince to make you think he was a leader even if he were on a team without a bunch of wins.
I guess I see what you are saying. Cutler didn't get to show in college that he could win in big high profile situations with possible championships on the line. I'm just saying, from what I've seen of him I think he is someone that can shake off mistakes and everything and although it might not have been in a Texas situation where he was expected to win he did make some comebacks and play in tough environments. We'll give it some time and see how he does in the NFL. I think he'll do quite well. I do agree that Denver has quite a bit of pressure since Elway was the qb.
