btw, MM, who's obscuring what? what do my posting methods have to do with VY's ROY worthiness....? but, yes, MM; i remember that. i'm not sure you do, however, because here's how it went down: rhester labeled vy (and i'm paraphrasing) a once in a lifetime talent, etc., etc. FIRST, and i then responded to his hyperbole with a dose of my own to try and balance it out. in fact, if memory serves, when i pointed that chain of events out to you, your response was in the neighborhood of "fair enough." hey, what do you know - more avoidance of vy talk to discuss me obscuring the discussion... btw, major, how's it coming on your claim that young had better numbers than leinart? or your explanation for dismissing wins as a fair evaluation of troy smith's award candididacy but not holding vy to the same standard? just a small sampling of the threads you've recently left high and dry on vy. oh, and for the record, DD DID say that; not only did i quote him saying exactly what you're now claiming i "distorted," but DD himself then came back and re-confirmed that yes, he did indeed believe vy made other players around him better.
Ric -- i'm not trying to obscure anything. merely pointing out, as i have before, that it's frustrating to discuss a topic with someone when they ascribe you a position you haven't taken. clearly i'm not the only one who has made note of that. as for VY. i believe he had the most impact of any rookie this season. apparently the voters who decide who wins this award agreed with me. it's over. he already has the award.
MM, all fine and dandy; and, you, too, have your shortcomings as a poster, including responding to second and third-hand information you don't bother to verify. and, or the record, you, too, have inaccurately painted pro-carr posters by obscuring their point - we all think he's above criticism; it's everyone's fault but his... sound familair? so, ok, we all have our posting issues - but what does ANY of it have to do with my contention that the vy faction's ONLY recourse for discussing vy is to simply NOT discuss him? are you saying that's what i do? that i don't respond, engage or debate topics, but instead claim superiority and stop even considering the merits of other people's opinions? because that i disagree with. i think if you scan through my posts just in this thread alone, you'll see me concede quite a few points; you'll also see me agree with several of the posters who bothered to engage me.... do you disagree? even the example you gave... you had initially conceded i was being "fair."
Demeco Ryans got more votes and won by a much larger margin. No rookie in the last 20 years had more tackles than him. It's a much bigger accomplishment than running around because you cant throw a football. But keep on suckin, Max.
i never indicated i was perfect. i would never suggest that. i do not know what you mean by second- or third-hand information. i respond to posts here quite a bit, ...if someone posts false crap and i respond, you're calling that a problem for me? do i need to verify every story/thought posted here before i respond? answer that if you wish...or not. truthfully, i don't care, because, as i said, i would never stand here and tell you i'm without fault. i already posted why i posted my pot/kettle post. it had NOTHING to do with what you're talking about, above. (claiming superiority without considering merits of the others' arguments) it had everything to do with changing the argument mid-stream by putting words in the other guy's mouth...which is exactly what you were criticizing him for.
i meant offensive rookie of the year, Mr. Touchdown. everytime you talk about football it convinces me you don't watch much football, merrill.
No you meant what you said because you don't even think to care about The Texans and their accomplishments. It's so obvious that it's all about VY to you guys. I do watch football. I'm looking forward to VY getting smeared when he is running around. Big hits are coming his way. I can't wait.
well, you've made a remark about my web site being anti-vy; i believe your source was something along the lines of, "from what i've heard" - not even what you've read, an easy, quick way to verify, but from what you've "heard"; that was the big one. other items here and there - kubiak's misconstrued quote about MW not being in on the vy/OT play, among them, off the top of my head. but, MM, here's my frustration - you've done EXACTLY what i'm "accusing" the vy faction of doing, and, fine, maybe this is a mischaracterization, but it's my observation: rather than actually engaging in debate, it resorts to dismissive behavior and misdirection. case in point: now, MM, you wanna talk about historic meetings between the kettle and the pot...? if the past is simply the past, and not worth discussing, does that mean we'll NEVER read another post of yours b****ing about carr's extension? after all, like the OROY award, carr "already has (it)" right? what about the '06 draft? are you telling me you'll never revisit it, either, because, and i'll quote you again: "it's over"? it's a forum established to debate; engage, disagree, etc. why, oh why, of all topics, is vy's worthiness of an award suddenly off limits? i'm honestly with you in wanting to move on, but, sorry - this made no sense to me. putting words in someone's mouth and trying to blow up one's argument as a means of pointing out its roots in hyperbole are two entirely different things, imo. this is what DD said: "Ric will still be saying the Texans shouldn't have taken him..." (emphasis mine) and here's the problem: i've never said that once, and now i'll still be saying it....? i did have ???s about vy; i DO think people inflate his worthiness and accomplishments. but i never said the texans shouldn't draft him, nor do i stick my fingers in my ear and claim he wasn't worth the top pick, or a good fit, or any other such nonsense. in fact, i've come so far as to say, in hindsight, he was probably the best pick, whereas i had been in the bush camp forever. if you think that's what i do; well, i'll police myself more carefully in the future. i'm sure i've misunderstood positions, etc. but i find it hard to believe i simply make up positions for people.
I dont understand the argument. Ric is trying to minimize what a playmaking qb like young did for his team. I'm a Titans fan 1st texans fan 2nd and i'm pleased with both the 1st rd pics. I think what Vince did was install a belief that they can make it happen no matter what it takes to do it. He is not bound by strings, just do it. Every qb should be like that and most of the great ones are. I'm not saying vince is great, but his poise and leadership is eveident. Ric- you want to talk about the passing number and all that, but look at the teams 3rd down effeciency once he took over. Look at Travis henry becoming travis henry again and the entire running game. What him stand tall in the pocket, make a read and if its not there, run with a purpose and get out of bounds. Dont just look at the Texans game, look at Buffalo at the end of the 1st half. When a guy takes off like that kills a defense and keep them back on ruching up the field. Go look at the Colts and see how many 3rd down, for 1st downs he had. Dont minimize what happen when he took over. Before the season and even the 1st couple weeks i thought texans were better than Titans, but after Vince got settled and the entire team started making plays, Titans were the better team. I may be in the minority, but the Texans arent far from a 8-8,9-7 team. I think if Carr had played better this season they could have 1,maybe 2 more wins. If they have another draft like this past year, some players get better, and they add a quality triggerman, they can get there. On paper, the Jets are a prime example of players making plays. Eventhough Chad didn't have a great year, but at times he made the correct throws and put drives together in crucial times in the game. Thats why qb's make more than other players.
Yes, Cutler's sample size wasn't enough (just went by NFL.com's rookie stats). Personally I was not that impressed with Cutler. Inherited a 7-4 team and the team went 2-3 the rest of the way to miss out on the playoffs. I also saw a number of real bonehead turnovers he made in those losses. On the other hand I know his stats are the best of the rookie QBs, and better than Jake Plummer. But no from what I saw I wouldn't think about taking him over VY, and would have to think hard before picking him over ML (probably depend on the type of offense, etc). Cutler may be an all-tool NFL QB, but whether he is a leader, winner, and poised decision maker under fire are still major questions I don't have for the other 2 who went before him--I am not sure he wouldn't have had a disastrous year trying to play with the casts at Tenn (terrible receivers, limited offensive firepower in general) or Arizona (terrible O-line and having to play from behind all the time). Just my opinion anyway, not that Cutler isn't still a fine prospect. I agree. I may call him Reggie BusT but that is just to have some fun and belittle the "greatest ever" build up and #1 jersey sales hype (R Bush strikes me as a tad arrogant as well). Post last year's pro day workouts I thought Bush was a legitimate top 3 pick despite a lot of concerns in him handling lots of touches as an RB, but thought crazy anyone would take him #1 in the same draft where VY was also available. Bush is oustanding utility player and slot guy. But he didn't come close to the receiver yards or TDs as a rookie WR on his own team, and his rushing performance was particularly bad for a guy rushing in favorable situation. Usually 3rd down backs and backs who don't rush in goalline situations like Bush should have better YPC than workhorses like McAlister, Reggie Bush was a really ineffective runner this year to have 1 yard less than a workhorse. So Bush is an excellent receiver and punt returner, but very poor runner. He is a good and effective player already, certainly dynamic and entertaining, and one who may get better and better and become a complete RB.
Everyone says big hits are coming Vince's way, and you know he has a knack for avoiding them. Nice originality with the Vince can't throw bull****, is that why tennessee went 8-5 with him as a starter after looking worse than the texans the first three games under Collins? I'm looking forward to the texans getting mauled by Vince for the next decade because that's what they deserve and will get.
unless you think there's a direct correlation between the two, this is what i've been saying; tennessee's turnaround was a team effort, and vy's role in it has been greatly blown out of proportion. notice, that doesn't denigrate young's performance, or even judge it. it's an indictment of his fans and the lazy, ignorant sportswriters/sportsfans across the country.
no it hasn't. He was the primary reason for the turnaround. He got guys in that locker room believing in him and believing they could win, which they didn't have under Collins. Do to that confidence, the D played better, the running game played better, etc. It's not all these parts started playing better, VY was just along for the ride. It was the other way around. Don't believe me? Go look at the comments from titan players after the game in Houston. Keith Bulluck said they should have started him from game 1, and was gushing over him. PacMan Jones called him the mayor of Texas after that game. Bobby Wade talked about how he always has them believing they can win.
Do I care what you think? No. I was never a diehard texan fan, and yes Vince is my favorite player. It could have been any NFL team, whichever one has Vince, I will support first. You don't have to support the hometown team just because you live there. And i'm not going to do so.
Thats impossible, Ric has told us over and over that the players are simply robots, there is no such thing as intangibles
