Dear Bob McNair

First of all, you can make a statistical argument.
-He was 1st in passing TDs.
-He was 2nd is passing yardage.
-He was 2nd among the 3 qualifiers on ratings (but this doesn't factor in rushing yardage--so like everything else it was be viewd in context)
-He was 7th in rushing yards (more than half of the most by any RB).
-He was 1st in rushing average.
-He tied for 3rd in rushing TDs.
-He accounted for 19 TDs, most of all rookies (Jones-Drew was 2nd with 16).

So VY already has a good statistical argument. It is when you consider other factors--the lack of quality and injuries in the offensive players around him, how inept the Titans team was until he was at the helm and had a few games behind him, and how many game saving plays he made (particulalry 3rd and 4th downs).

And it is hilarous when people talk about the Tenn defense or offensive talent he supposedly had being difference makers. Tenn by most common metrics (yards, points) had among the worst defenses in the league. Particularly after injury, no other QB also had as inexperienced and untalented WR corp to work with (just think of the improvement in yards and % had he had Fitz, Bolden and Johnson on the end of his throws). Tenn didn't have a good offense with VY (though they became respectable and sustained some drives), but they were so far and away the worst in the league before he found some seas legs a couple games into his starts.

One really problematic issue in the evaluation of QBs and QB rating is the understimation of rushing yards. You probably need to double them or at least mutiple them by 1.5 and then use it in a computation to adequate consider the impact in a traditional rating. These are largely plays that often otherwise would sacks or at best throw aways, and more importantly a great passer-runner also make the opponents have to adjust their schemes. All you have to do is listen to NFL d lineman to understand how much a guy who can throw, scramble and run downfield exhausts them and dispirits them.

 

there were 4 rookie QBs who saw significant playing time this year; young had 13 starts; the most starts among the other 3 was 11. so of course he's going to lead in cumulative statistics; not a big surprise.

his per game averages, however, were no better, and often worse, than leinart and cutler's.

it was actually 20, and i would agree - these are all valid points.

another valid point, obscured, however, by romaniticism; converting a 3rd down in the 1Q is worthy of "game saving" status........? see what i mean? again, it's a valid point on its own merit - he converted many 3rd and 4th downs - so why did you have to overblow it?

i'm deleting most of your post, but not because i disagree with it. only to focus on this part of it: are you arguing travis henry didn't have any impact on the titans this year? that the defense wasn't extremely opportunistic, especially during the team's 8-4 finish? that pacman jones didn't develop into an absolute weapon on special teams?

i'll grant vince young his due (and have, for the record); but, imo, he is often cited here with complete disregard for other equally important components of the team's success.

i would agree with every word of this; you're right - i was too dismissive of his running totals. i still don't think his overall numbers justify the selection, or, rather, i don't think they were good enough to overcome others who, imo, were more worthy. so i'll recant my "mediocre" statement, which i meant only in relation to this award, anyway. i've always thought, as a rookie, indepedent of any awards, he was far from mediocre; more or less, he was about what you'd expect from a rookie.

 

Ric is Merril Hodge, he can't see the forest through the trees.

As Vince Young wins League MVP and Super Bowl MVP awards Ric will still be saying the Texans shouldn't have taken him, and that Vince is not a leader.

What the heck ever !

DD

 

The bottom line is we do not know how things will play out in the future. This crap is just like the Rudy G trade. Everyone freaking out becuase they just kneeeeeewwww everything is so horrible. They don't know ****. Nobody knows anything, but what is annoying is that for the UT/Austin Vince nut lickers your statement above is a forgone conclusion. We do not know what the future holds for any team or player. I just prefer to support the one that plays for the city of Houston. I believe good things can happen for us. Nobody thought the Rockets would be where they are now. **** the Titans. **** Vince Young.

 

We know that Vince Young is Rookie of the Year and Reggie Bush is in the NFC Championship game and Matt Leinart did Paris Hilton.
Rudy Gay didn't win a championship in college.
He's not the rookie of the year.
Vince Young is playing for the people of Houston.
He gets front row seats to Rocket games and hangs with Deke and Luther.
Don't be jealous.
Beyonce is sleeping with Jay Z. Jay Z is from New York.
hate on her too cause she didn't hook up with Paul Wall.

 

Pacman played great, no question. Keith Bulluck played great. Henry is a well above average starting tailback (it isn't like he is LT or Larry Johnson). But comnpared to other teams near 500, the Titans had very little talent. VY was the best player, accouting for the vast majority of their offensive yards and the big plays the offense made, on a very overachieving team.

I can see how what he did was "expected". GMs thought he couldn't escape NFL defenders. GMs thought he couldn't play controlled. I'll bet he performed better than 9/10 persons in the know expected, he was a rookie QB who had an impact (on a completely inept offense before he took over I might add--not that they had inept players, but as a group they were inept), that is rare.

 

Scar,
Vince Young made Travis Henry a better running back. The defense has to prepare for two players running not just one.

Look at the Longhorns RBs without Vince, they are just average. Jamaal Charles isn't breaking ankles for some reason this season. Hint: Vince.

 

Not true. If it was this thread would not exist.

Houston Texan DeMeco Ryans is Rookie of the Year. Who saw that one coming?

 

DeMeco was a great pick.
However, even as a Vince supporter. The fact they didn't pick Reggie Bush proves that the Houston Texans management cares only about making money.
Bush wanted megabucks, and Mario took whatever he got cause it was more than he expected.

Can Houston management be so stupid? Reggie Bush is in the top 10 in jersey sales. Although he had a slow start, there was no denial of this dude's talent.

The only thing you can ask McNair to do is not to make stupid Enron decisions next draft. if they pass up on a major talent again, then we know that Bob McNair cares.. about saving money.

 

Nicely put...

 

Just my .02. If Houston had drafted bush and he produced the yr he did, what would they be saying? If you want to tell me the texans should have drafted Young, i can agree with you, but dont even bring bush to the argument. On a team in which duece ran for 4.5 a carry and all he can do is 3.5, c'mon. Where was reggie late in the game against philly? The same place he was late in the game against texas, on the sidelines. Soon, NO will have to either trade Duece or reduce his salary because its impossible to have that much money tied up into a backfield. Thats when you will see if Reggie Bush is what they say he is. As for Mario, he signed for more than what reggie got, but less than Vince because vince is a qb. This debate will go on and on and truthfully, Kubiak had to make his own evealuation of Carr. He had to see if his coaching could bring him up. I think now that he has seen it, he knows which direction to go. As for mario, he had a good, not great yr, but how many people can play with that injury he had. I've seen nba players take weeks off with that injury. He did what i expected from a read and react end. I guess no one noticed how much better the run defense was after week 6. If mario was allowed to just get up the field like freeney, he could have more sacks than what he did. If Mario was a 3rd down rusher plauing with alex brown and tommie harris, he could have more sacks. If he played with someone like Jared Allen ,he could have more sacks. In the scheme he is asked to penetrate,stand the blocker up and find the ball. Even while doing all this, the protection and the fullback is chipping him.

 

i was not opposed to the texans taking VY (he wasn't my 1st choice, but i wouldn't have been upset if he'd been the pick), and have since conceded that all things being equal, he probably represented the safest choice for all involved. problem here is that one side (that would be me) is willing to meet the other side half way - your side is the one that isn't seeing the forest through the trees because you can't stand for your golden boy's amour to get dinged.

if i've said anything you can actually categorically disprove, have at it. instead, i get the usual MO, which is to stomp your feet up and down and cry about how wrong i am. meanwhile, while you're making up things i never actually said, all i'm trying to do is police nonsensical garbage like...

do you realize travis henry was a first round pick who, in seasons 2 and 3 of his career, put together 1,400+ and 1,350+ rushing seasons with 25 total TDs? getting healthy (he made only 6 starts between 04 and 05) was what made travis henry a better back last year, not ****ing vince young.

 

oh, DD, and **** like this, too...

so... houston management, scrooges that they are, deemed a proven marketing phenomenon like reggie bush would NOT make them additional money... - is that the line of reasoning you're attempting (and failing miserably) to walk here...?

 

Mr. Kettle??? Mr. Pot is holding for you on line 1.

 

such as what, max? care to provide an example...? there must be plenty to choose from....

 

i just pointed one out to you the other day where you twisted the words of the guy you were talking to (i think it was rhester) to exaggerate his statement to a ridiculous extreme that was easy to knock down. i've pointed that out to you on more than one occassion.

 

I've brought it up at least 3 times in conversations with you which became pointless because you kept changing what other people were saying. The most recent I remember is in the leadership thread, when you started claiming that DaDa was arguing that Vince Young could make a player into an 1800 yard rusher or some other nonsense, which no one except you ever claimed. You distorted what he said, turned it into something unreasonable, and then explained how unreasonable it was. You do it all the time.

 

Do you happen to know how many games you have to play on to qualify (or is it done by number of passes or something)? I believe Jay Cutler had the best rating of the "big 3" qbs from the draft, but I don't see him in the rankings so I guess 5 games isn't enough.

I assume the 3rd guy you are talking about is Gradkowski?

 

I also agree that you do have to take into account rushing. That is a factor that can be important.

If we look beyond just passing and look at rushing too on a qb, I think we should also look at the catches that Reggie Bush had as well. Just like a qb rushing can't be ignored, that probably shouldn't be either.