Aha! So he did invite himself! YEEEEAAAAARRRHHHH!!! The rest of your points are half-truths and lies! YEEEAAARRRHHHH I'm going to the kitchen now to make a sandwich!! YEEEEAAARRRHHH!!
Awesome. You didn't refute a single thing I said. All you've done over the last day is to mock one moment from a guy who almost definitely won't be the nominee. Disappointing performance even from you. Missed you around the Bill White thread, by the way.
Dean's speech was laughable, but I don't think it would matter in the general election at all. After all our current president can't pronounce nuclear, was AWOL from the National Guard during Viet Nam, has run any business he's ever been a part of into failure, once claimed that we went to war with Iraq because after giving Saddam multiple chance Saddam wouldn't let the inspectors in(what planet was he one when he made that comment) etc. Claimed that we HAVE discovered WMD in Iraq, Did nothing about Osama after being told that he was the biggest threat to the U.S. but did initiate the non-effective missle defense program instead, took part in a MLK ceremony one day then circumvented congress to appoint a person who lied under oath with a record of anti-civil rights activism the next day, gave the speech on the naval carrier in front of the infamous 'Mission Accomplished' poster, among other flaws some major and some minor, and most astonishingly of alll allows someone in his whitehouse with top security clearence to get away with a felony by leaking the identity of an under cover operative, while we have troops in the field and our engaged in a war on terror. So if a guy can get buy unscathed with all that, let Dean make all the stupid yells he wants, it means nothing.
So a minority of Americans agree -- where is your proof by the way? This is HIGHLY controversial. YEEAAARRHHH He refused to say that Osama deserved death, dspite osama admitting to 911. TRUTH YEEEAAARRRHH Howard Dean's plan to RAISE taxes on all taxpayers is *dramatic* indeed! Bush lowered them to fuel economic growth. Dean wants to inflict damage on the economy and take your hard-earned money. TRUTH YEEEAAAAARRRRHHH Kerry believes me. Dean's misuse of the Confederate Flag to garner votes is sickening! That flag is a symbol of oppression, not a vote garnering mechanism. TRUTH YEEAAAARRHHH Dean's whole movement is based on voicing opinions contrary to the norm. Why does Dean SUPPRESS opinions contrary to his? Hypocrisy. The question asker (Ungar) was a mild-mannered, 66 year old man. There was no badgering going on, you must not have heard the clip. TRUTH YEEEEAAAARRHHHHH This is *not* a lie. Dean went on a radio program and said that Bush had foreknowledge of the attacks of 911. This *did* happen, though I understand why you don't *want* to believe it. YEEEAAAARRRHHH Never have I seen a more shameless attempt at getting votes than what Howard Dean did here. He never speaks about religion, then all of a sudden he needs votes in the South. Poof! He's a born again Christian! Pathetic. Now you hear Jesus in every one of his speeches! YEEEAAARRHHHH Oh, *very questionable*. I guess ol' Howie should have been campaigning in Iowa instead of inviting himself to Georgia! That one came back to sting! YEEEAAAARRRHHH Where have you been? Dean's insistence upon unilateral military action completes invalidates his entire campaign! YEEAAARRRHHH NURSE!! I NEED THE BONE SAW!!! YEEEEEEEEAAAAAARRRRRHHHHHHHH
Don't know if this has been posted or not but it kind of gave me the willies. http://www.reuters.com/printerFriendlyPopup.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=4171476 Dean Disarms Hecklers with National Anthem Tue January 20, 2004 06:05 PM ET CONCORD, N.H. (Reuters) - Democratic presidential contender Howard Dean on Tuesday unleashed an unlikely weapon to disarm hecklers -- the U.S. national anthem. When a rally at the New Hampshire Technical Institute in Concord was interrupted for a second time, the former Vermont governor led his supporters in a rousing rendition of the Star Spangled Banner to drown them out. Earlier, Dean had called for security to remove a couple of protesters who were shouting and waving the Confederate flag, a divisive symbol of racism and slavery in the South. As they were hustled out, Dean requested they not be "manhandled." Last year, Dean was roundly attacked for making an insensitive remark about wanting to be the candidate for "guys with the Confederate flag on their pickups." He later apologized for the remark. Dean criticized the hecklers, saying they "refuse to respect our right of free speech" and told the crowd: "But you can exercise your right to vote and that's the way we're going to take back our country. The way to deal with what you have seen this afternoon is to vote." So he has them removed, because they were excercising their free speech, and then accuses them of infringing on his? This doesn't really make sense to me. Bush would tread all over Dean in an election. You Dems better pray he doesn't win.
1. It's not the movement, it's the man. Voters vote for a person, not the forces he or she unleashes. Howard Dean did birth a movement of sorts. It has been made up in part of political newcomers outraged by the war in Iraq and George W. Bush's lies. The rise of this Internet-fueled activism was the story of the campaign--until Iowa. When the voting started, the only issue was the candidates, not their troops. Dean was judged on his own. And he did not sufficiently impress the caucus attendees. Was it his gaffes? Did he come across as too angry, too unsteady, or not experienced enough? The reasons don't matter. In the electoral arena, a movement can only go so far as its leader can carry it. 2. The war didn't matter. An entrance poll taken at the caucuses showed that 75 percent of the attendees opposed the war in Iraq. But only 14 percent said the war had influenced their selection of a nominee. This somewhat explains Dean's slide. The candidates who had voted to grant Bush authorization for war garnered 81 percent of the vote. The two antiwar candidates--Dean and Dennis Kucinich--attracted 19 percent. Voters who disagreed with Kerry and Edwards on the war were still willing to support them. Why? Perhaps the old cliche of political consultants provides the explanation: elections are about the future, not the past. Even if voters were on the same side as Dean on the war, it did not mean they believed he would be able to beat Bush or be able to handle the national security challenges that lie ahead. Being right only gets you so far. A candidate has to offer more than that. The Iowa returns indicate the war has not yet become an overwhelmingly divisive--or decisive--political issue. 3. Voters want to be reassured, not merely fired up. Dean had the passion. He pumped up the volume. (He shouted like a madman on election night, promising to win the primaries to come.) His message and method certainly struck a nerve and drew hundreds of thousands of Americans to his campaign. But the Iowa caucuses suggest that Dean did not inspire confidence among caucus goer. Are voters--particularly in the post-9/11 era--looking for leaders who not only can express outrage but who can also project calm and strength? 4. Negative campaigning works. Dean's drop was not entirely of his own making. He was battered by his competitors, and the media attention he drew was often caustic. Negative ads tend to take a toll--especially when they are relentless. Unfortunately for Gephardt, his attacks on Dean also appeared to have damaged his own campaign and created an opening for Kerry and Edwards. Is there a lesson here for the general election? Perhaps. Bush will have $200 million or so to spend in the months before the summer. That can buy a lot of mud to hurl at whomever winds up the Democratic nominee. But also the Democratic nominee will have to figure out how to balance his attacks against Bush with a positive, upbeat message. 5. Special interests are bad. Every Democratic candidate in Iowa bashed special interests. Each promised that if he were elected he would do battle with HMOs, drug companies, insurance firms, agribusiness, power companies and the like. On election night, John Kerry stood before a banner that read, "Fighting for Us," and proclaimed, "I have a special message for the special interests that call the Bush White House home: We're coming. You're leaving. And don't let the door hit you on your way out." This was bad news for the corporate-funded Democratic Leadership Council wing of the party, which has often counseled against class warfare or corporate-bashing. Populist rhetoric (which, of course, is different from populist action) reigns supreme--at least for now. 6. Is money enough? In recent years, the candidate with the biggest campaign bank account at the start of the primary process always bagged the nomination. Dean was in that position before Iowa. His money allowed him to create large organizations in Iowa, New Hampshire and elsewhere, and to fund an advertising barrage in key states. But is the money enough to sustain Dean's candidacy? Will this be the year a candidate with less money triumphs? 7. Can the Democrats count on traditional Big Labor? Richard Gephardt had a lock on the industrial unions in Iowa. They vowed to turn out their members for him. But these promises ended up meaning little. Either the labor unions failed to get their folks to the caucuses, or they failed to persuade their people to vote for the guy they endorsed. In either case, Democrats ought to worry about the ability of the large trade unions to produce vast blocs of votes for the Democratic challenger in November. 8. Dennis Kucinich is not acquitting himself well. Kucinich's 1 percent does not provide much justification for continuing his progressive campaign. But he also committed a misstep when he struck a deal with John Edwards and pledged his voters to Edwards in caucuses where Kucinich would not reach the cutoff. Since Kucinich is running as an antiwar candidate--boasting he will pull the troops out of Iraq faster than the others--it was odd that he forged an alliance with Edwards, who has supported the war in Iraq. Why not Dean, who shares Kucinich's opposition to the war? In any event, this tactical move made little difference in the final results. But it did tarnish Kucinich's status as a stand-by-principles politician. 9. Ban the caucuses. Anyone watching the caucuces on C-SPAN--which was the best reality TV of the season--could see that this is a poor way of choosing a nominee. It's not grassroots democracy at its best. It's chaos. In precincts where candidates do not hit 15 percent, rampant dealmaking ensues, as the other camps try to entice the supporters of the under-15 candidates to join them. How do they do this? By offering them delegate slots and by making arguments that often are factually suspect. The final results, then, do not reflect the true preferences of the people who bothered to attend the caucuses. They are a partial reflection, shaped by whatever wheedling goes on while the "voting" is in process. A primary--and direct voting--would provide a more accurate representation of Iowans' wishes. 10. The pundits know what they're talking about. Before the Dean movement--or bubble--fully emerged, political prognosticators pegged Kerry as the front-runner. He had the stature, the gravitas, the experience, the money. He was, many said (myself included), the default candidate. But Kerry ran a poor campaign and spent months failing to connect. He also devoted too much time and energy to swiping at Dean--which made Kerry look desperate and small. But once he stopped flailing, and once Iowa voters got closer to having to make a choice, Kerry returned to his pre-Dean spot: a by-the-numbers Democratic candidate acceptable (if not inspirational) to many Democratic voters. The pundits had that right. But after the surprising results in Iowa, they would be wise not to make any further predictions for the duration of the race. DON'T FORGET ABOUT DAVID CORN'S NEW BOOK, The Lies of George W. Bush: Mastering the Politics of Deception (Crown Publishers). A NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLER! The Library Journal says, "Corn chronicles to devastating effect the lies, falsehoods, and misrepresentations....Corn has painstakingly unearthed a bill of particulars against the president that is as damaging as it is thorough." For more information and a sample, check out the book's official website: www.bushlies.com. link
This is all hilarious. Dean didn't need to make a speech like that, and he came off strange as a result. But basically if the best that TJ and Republicans can come up with about the guy is that he said Yeeeeeeaarrrgh at speech, then please nominate him and let's have the election as soon as possible. The fact that Bush has a felon running loose in his whitehouse that was hired by Bush, and has top security clearence which he/she has abused in a time when our troops are in the field and we are fighting a battle against terrorism easily trumps a guy going 'yeeeearrrghh' during a speech. TJ's list has been debunked by batman, and the fact that he tried to justify it afterwards with a pitiful attempt at half truths doesn't serve his cause well. I don't think anyone on this board still believes the claim that Dean stated he believed that Bush knew about 9/11 ahead of time. The rest of TJ's justification falls in line with that laughable claim.
So a minority of Americans agree -- where is your proof by the way? This is HIGHLY controversial. YEEAAARRHHH A poll I saw. Don't remember where. Believe me or don't. He refused to say that Osama deserved death, dspite osama admitting to 911. TRUTH YEEEAAARRRHH This is what Dean said: "I've resisted pronouncing a sentence before guilt is found," Dean told New Hampshire's Concord Monitor. "I still have this old-fashioned notion that even with people like Osama, who is very likely to be found guilty, we should do our best not to, in positions of executive power, not to prejudge jury trials," he said. That's one of your reasons why he shouldn't be elected? I ask again, why do you hate due process? Why do you hate America? Howard Dean's plan to RAISE taxes on all taxpayers is *dramatic* indeed! Bush lowered them to fuel economic growth. Dean wants to inflict damage on the economy and take your hard-earned money. TRUTH YEEEAAAAARRRRHHH Yeah, he's doing it in order to inflict damage on the economy. That's it. That's the only reason anyone ever raises taxes. It's not to do with the deficit or balancing the budget or choosing to fund programs important to all Americans rather than making the rich richer while they export jobs to Third World countries. Nah, it's to inflict damage on the economy. Damn. Who told you? Kerry believes me. Dean's misuse of the Confederate Flag to garner votes is sickening! That flag is a symbol of oppression, not a vote garnering mechanism. TRUTH YEEAAAARRHHH One more time now. The first time Dean used this line, his meaning was more clear. The point was that poor whites should be voting Democrat because they're getting screwed by Republicans just like poor blacks are. It's a great argument, it's one that Edwards is using successfully now and it's one that received a standing ovation from a hall full of Democrats (including McAullife) the first time it was used. The next time he used it, he was sloppier about it and his meaning was less clear. Kerry pretending it was somehow racially insensitive then and you doing it now is wholly disingenuous and you know it. Dean's whole movement is based on voicing opinions contrary to the norm. Why does Dean SUPPRESS opinions contrary to his? Hypocrisy. The question asker (Ungar) was a mild-mannered, 66 year old man. There was no badgering going on, you must not have heard the clip. TRUTH YEEEEAAAARRHHHHH You're right. I didn't "hear the clip." But here's what happened. Further proof of your lies: The former Vermont governor, taking a question from the audience after his standard stump speech, found himself being criticized for condemning the policies of President Bush and, with the assistance of the press, showing no respect for authority. "It just makes me furious when the political media and the columnists slam, bam, and bash Bush," contended Dale Ungerer, 67, a registered Republican from Hawkeye. "If you analyze it, how many times did you criticize Bush, but what's the sense if you don't actually say that `My plan involves this and this?'" Ungerer called on the Democrats to heed the biblical maxim of "love thy neighbor," adding: "Please tone down the garbage, the mean-mouthing, of tearing down your neighbor, and being so pompous." Dean, who listened quietly, immediately replied, "George Bush is not my neighbor." When Ungerer tried to interrupt, the former governor shouted: "You sit down! You had your say, and now I'm going to have my say." This is *not* a lie. Dean went on a radio program and said that Bush had foreknowledge of the attacks of 911. This *did* happen, though I understand why you don't *want* to believe it. YEEEAAAARRRHHH Liar. DIANE REHM SHOW WEEK OF 12/1/03 CALLER: Once we get you in the White House, would you please make sure that there is a thorough investigation of 9/11 and not stonewall it? GOVERNOR DEAN: Yes, there is a report which the President is suppressing evidence for which is a thorough investigation of 9/11. REHM: Why do you think that he is suppressing that report? GOVERNOR DEAN: I don't know. There are many theories about it. The most interesting theory that I've heard so far which is nothing more than a theory, I can't think--it can't be proved, is that he was warned ahead of time by the Saudis. Now who knows what the real situation is, but the trouble is by suppressing that kind of information, you lead to those kinds of theories whether they have truth to them or not, and eventually they get repeated as fact. So I think the President is taking a great risk by suppressing the clear---the key information that needs to go the Cain commission. b****-slapped. Never have I seen a more shameless attempt at getting votes than what Howard Dean did here. He never speaks about religion, then all of a sudden he needs votes in the South. Poof! He's a born again Christian! Pathetic. Now you hear Jesus in every one of his speeches! YEEEAAARRHHHH He's not a born again Christian. That's Bush. I guess his faith in Christ is just political too. I repeat, you're known for your ill formed arguments and silly platitudes, but this is flat offensive. You should be ashamed of yourself. Oh, *very questionable*. I guess ol' Howie should have been campaigning in Iowa instead of inviting himself to Georgia! That one came back to sting! YEEEAAAARRRHHH This is one of your reasons he shouldn't be president? Weak and double weak. There are much better reasons from either side of the aisle. You can find them in his platform. Just because Rush doesn't talk about them doesn't mean they don't exist. Try his website. Where have you been? Dean's insistence upon unilateral military action completes invalidates his entire campaign! YEEAAARRRHHH Link. I have less than no reason to believe anything you say, since it's more than half spin c*m lies. You're really not even worth the effort. But it was fun schooling you again for old time's sake.
p.s. Jorge: Here's the truth about the Confederate flag stuff, even though you already knew it. http://www.boston.com/news/politics...11/07/deans_appeal_to_south_cuts_across_race/ Dean's appeal to South cuts across race By Derrick Z. Jackson, 11/7/2003 NO ONE ACCUSED Howard Dean of whistling Dixie in February when he tried to appeal to Southern white men or to Southern black people about Southern "You know all those white guys riding around with Confederate flags in the back of their pickup trucks? Well, their kids don't have health insurance either." Dean said this before a group of African-Americans at a hamburger joint in Spartanburg, S.C. A Newsday story said, "This blunt appeal to a commonality of racial interests won the moment and a burst of applause." That same month in Washington at the Democratic National Committee winter meeting, Dean said, "I intend to talk about race during this election in the South because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. . . . White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools, too." That brought a standing ovation. That makes very curious the catcalls nine months later from Dean's rivals for the Democratic presidential nomination. Last Saturday, Dean said in the Des Moines Register, "I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks. We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats." As if this was the first time they heard it, the other candidates drew crossbows. John Kerry said it was "craven." Joseph Lieberman said it was "reckless." Dick Gephardt said "I will be the candidate for guys with American flags." At this week's Rock the Vote forum in Boston, John Edwards told Dean, "The last thing we need in the South is somebody like you coming down and telling us what we need to do." Al Sharpton said Dean sounded "more like Stonewall Jackson than Jesse Jackson." Sharpton also said, "Maynard Jackson said that the Confederate flag is America's swastika. . . . I don't think you're a bigot, but I think that is insensitive." That last dig showed how fast Sharpton and the Democratic candidates get lost without a compass. Maynard Jackson, Atlanta's first African-American mayor who died this summer, gave Dean some of the loudest applause at the DNC meeting. "Dean blew the roof off today," Jackson said. "There was no mealy-mouth wishy-washiness about it. It was very gutsy." Donna Brazile, the campaign manager for the 2000 presidential campaign of Al Gore and Lieberman, and no mealy-mouth herself, said Dean's words were "the medicine to cure my depression." Referring to the Democrats' fear of squarely taking on Bush's policies, Brazile, despite her neutrality, said, "Anybody who gets us off the floor and out of the fetal position, I'm for." The Democrats should stop trying to mop the floor with Dean's Confederate flag and grab their opportunity before it is lost. There is a health care crisis that cuts across race. There is a public education crisis that cuts across race. There is a jobless economic "recovery" that cuts across race. The Republicans have successfully distracted huge swaths of white males from those problems, exploiting various codes that blame everyone except straight white men for America's problems. In the Deep South, ties to the Confederacy remain a powerful political code. In 2001, white voters in Mississippi voted overwhelmingly to retain the current flag, which includes the Confederate symbol, over the wishes of African-American voters who wanted a new flag. This week, former Republican National Committee chairman Haley Barbour won the Mississippi governor's race after defiantly refusing to disavow the use of his photo by the Council of Conservative Citizens, a group tied to the old segregationist white citizens councils. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney came to Mississippi to campaign for Barbour. While Barbour played to the code, Dean was trying to crack it. Some political analysts talk as if the white South is locked up forever for the Republicans. Had the Democrats won just one other state in 2000, Bush would not be in the White House. Clinton had the economic message to win several Southern states in both 1992 and 1996. Dean has since apologized for invoking Confederate imagery. He should drop the Confederate line because it risks its own distraction, narrowly stereotyping Southern white males when too many white men all across America, broadly stereotyped as "NASCAR dads," have been persuaded to vote for codes against their best economic interests. Dean should not drop the cause. The real apology should come from the other Democratic candidates for not joining it. Dean was the first to get off the floor to say the Democrats cannot win unless they tell white men how code politics is killing them in the pocketbook. Back in February, Maynard Jackson said Dean's bluntness "stole the show." The other candidates are merely jealous that Dean stole the issue of white men while they are still talking their way out of the fetal position.
Actually, and remember, I said before this whole thing that I didn't want Dean to be the guy, so this isn't someone looking to defend him...but I just saw his speech, and really, no biggie. At all. Sort of a different way to go, but he kept turning around to someone behind him, making it very apparent that, rather than losing control, he was just having fun with the whole rally speech idea. Really overblown. I think his losing was a big deal, and hope that that effectively puts him out of the running...but if this speech is that big of a deal, we are even more superficial than I expected. Consider that he was trying to reward and reassure people who had, I am told, worked very long and hard on his behalf in Iowa, and had just been dealth a very big blow...Sure, more conventional politicians would have been more demure and statesmanlike in defeat, but when has Dean ever been conventional?
Batman Jones.. With all due respect.. I urge you to rethink your support of Howard Dean.. He isn't a candidate that can defeat George Bush.. Howard Dean is mentally and emotionally unstable.. He should be seeking mental and emotional help.. instead of wasting our time in a campaign.. I supported Howard Dean once upon a time and contributed to his campaign.. But the man is mentally ill.. Please, do not remain in denial about this..
I think you are forgetting that in his speech he went 'yeeeeeahhhhrrrrggghhh'. That clearly is a HUGE deal, and there is no way anyone who goes 'Yeeeeeeaaaahhhrrrrrggghhh' should be able to be a candidate for the President. We need to set some priorities on things, and yeah maybe the guy has integrity, doesn't employ felons, and things like that, but he did go 'Yeeeeeaaaaaahhhhhhhrrrrggggghhh'.
You know, I thought the Yearrrgh was pretty funny, although too high pitched in a gonad grabbing way....I must admit I am for once actually laughing at some of Jorge's antics in between his usual diet of half-truths, distortions, and outright lies....YEEEARRRRGH!
Murdock: I disagree with you entirely about Dean's stability. Rudy T once yelled "Kapayah!" if you'll recall. He hasn't been committed yet. MacBeth's right. The speech was very bad, but Matt Drudge, Rush and Trader Jorgie are being ridiculous. But if you'll re-read the thread you'll see that I'm not presently in the Dean camp. I do hope he'll lure me back by returning to the strong arguments (including the one in the Boston Globe article posted above) that made him the frontrunner. Right now though I'm leaning towards Kerry or Edwards.
Batman Jones, Please accept my apologizes for lumping you in with the Dean supporters.. I just cannot help but wonder if he is mentally unstable or worse yet.. taking an illicit substance (i.e. methamphedimines) to deal with the lack of sleep and crazy schedule he is on.. I'm sure I'm not the only one that the thought of Dean possibly being on Drugs has passed their mind?
Ten days gone, Jorge. I responded point by point complete with links and transcripts. You can start a new one of these on every single Dem running, but you will be ignored if you run away every time you lose (which is always).
