1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

[DC Baseball] Stupid, Fat Woman single-handedly kills the Capitol's bid for Expos

Discussion in 'Other Sports' started by DCkid, Dec 15, 2004.

  1. MadMax

    MadMax Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Messages:
    76,683
    Likes Received:
    25,924
    Where are the clubs you're talking about? Seriously...there is nothing in the immediate 3 block vicinity in any direction other than what I've mentioned. I wish that weren't so, but it is.

    The 1% figure was published...I'm not lying. You can choose to believe me or not. It was in a Chronicle article that I believe we even talked about here. I also have a brother-in-law who is very connected locally and knows Tillman fairly well. He was telling me that 1% number before I ever read it. Literally...1%. If there's not a convention in town, they're empty. And it's not hard to imagine why. There are plenty of hotels in closer locations to the central business district...and the huge convention center hotel is spacious and never full...hard to get trickle down. Who's staying at the Inn at the Ballpark on a December weekend with no convention in town?? Seriously...who??

    What transformation?? Seriously?? Where is it?? Parking lots?? Walk out of the stadium through Union Station. Walk down the street to your immediate right...how far do you go before you get to see anything other than parking lots? That development simply isn't there. You have to go to Main before you hit anything. Anything at all. Walk down Texas...get past the hotel...what's next??? There's that little restaurant that is a branch off of Irma's, which has been in the warehouse district for years....and there's a little philly cheese steak shop on your right...you walk past the federal prison....and you don't find another restaurant/bar until you hit Main. That's it.

    Vic and Anthony's is fantastic...but it's a draw without the ballpark. I don't see the two playing off each other, unless you regularly attend ballgames in a coat and tie.

    The problem has been the overvaluation of the land. This is not what was envisioned for this area. Land speculators went wild as soon as the ballpark plans were announced, and the prices haven't come down enough. It's a huge discouragement.

    Have you guys been to Denver to see Coors?? How about to Baltimore?? Those areas are packed with bars/restaurants on every corner. That's the kind of development you should be touting for these projects. Houston is a poor example of that right now, frankly. Again, I wish that weren't so, because there's no one who enjoys downtown and the experience of going to an MLB game more than I do.
     
  2. DCkid

    DCkid Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2001
    Messages:
    9,661
    Likes Received:
    2,706
    Cropp Vowed to Back Deal, Mayor Believed
    Chairman Admits Blindsiding Williams


    By Lori Montgomery
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Thursday, December 16, 2004


    On Monday night, hours before the D.C. Council was set to cast a final vote on his plan to finance a new baseball stadium, Mayor Anthony A. Williams and Council Chairman Linda W. Cropp met to work out a few last details.

    "So, am I going to be happy or unhappy tomorrow?" the mayor asked Cropp when the meeting ended.

    "I think you're going to be pleased," she replied.


    As they parted ways, the mayor and chairman understood that exchange to mean two very different things.

    Williams (D) was convinced that Cropp had promised to deliver the votes for his baseball package, officials said. But Cropp (D) said she was optimistic because she thought that Williams had agreed to go back to Major League Baseball officials and finagle a few last concessions to lower the public cost of the ballpark.

    Over the next 24 hours, that gap in understanding between the city's two most powerful political leaders grew into a vast divide. On Tuesday, Williams wandered into the council chambers expecting to watch the triumphant finale of his six-year campaign to bring baseball back to the nation's capital. Instead, he sat in stunned silence as Cropp rammed through an amendment so poisonous to baseball officials that yesterday they halted ticket sales and canceled the scheduled unveiling of Washington Nationals uniforms.

    Supporters and opponents of the baseball deal yesterday debated what drove Cropp to drop her bombshell and whether Williams should have known something was amiss.

    In several interviews, Cropp acknowledged blindsiding the mayor, her council colleagues and even members of her staff with the amendment, which required that half of the cost of the ballpark come from private financing. She said she drafted it late in the day, "as I listened to the debate, and the concerns I've had over the past couple of months kind of percolated."

    Those concerns prompted her to demand two weeks ago that Williams go back to baseball officials and renegotiate portions of the stadium agreement that the city and Major League Baseball signed in late September. Among her demands: The city should be able to use the stadium more often. The team should provide more benefits to the community. The city's liability should be limited if the ballpark is not ready for the 2008 season. And most important to Cropp, the city should be able to pursue private financing instead of being required to build the stadium with new taxes.

    Cropp acknowledged that the list of concessions Williams presented to her Monday night met every one of those demands. But she said she wanted more, and that she gave Williams "language, amendments I had written" to take back to baseball officials. She described those amendments yesterday in vague terms, saying she wanted more "shared costs."

    When baseball sent a final version of the list to Cropp about noon Tuesday, it did not contain any of those revisions, she said. She distributed it to her council colleagues, and many of them mocked it from the dais as petty and insubstantial.

    "I told her, 'Mrs. Cropp, all they're doing is regurgitating.' I think that really made her mad," said council member Carol Schwartz (R-At Large).

    Cropp said the debate helped to crystallize her thinking and convinced her that drastic action was needed.

    "I consistently said I will not vote for this unless I get some changes," Cropp said. "And I realized there were not substantive changes."

    Furious, Williams bolted from the chamber before the council took a final vote.

    Williams was still so angry yesterday that he refused to speak directly with Cropp, according to his aides. City Administrator Robert C. Bobb met with her after the vote. Bobb said the mayor thought he had been badly betrayed.

    "We met with her and her staff twice [late Monday] and we felt like all of her concerns were answered," Bobb said. "If she had raised these problems the night before, we could have addressed them."

    Bobb declined to say whether he still trusts Cropp, who has appeared to pull the rug out from under the stadium deal three times over the past month. "I believe in conspiracy theories," he said, smiling.

    Council member Harold Brazil (D-At Large), a baseball booster, called Cropp's maneuver an "ambush" and accused her of tacking the poison-pill amendment onto the baseball bill in hopes of gaining political advantage in the 2006 race for mayor.

    Polls show that a majority of city residents oppose public funding of a ballpark.

    But council member Jack Evans (D-Ward 2), the mayor's closest ally on baseball, said he believes Cropp was worn down after a daylong barrage of criticism from two ardent opponents of the stadium deal: council members Adrian M. Fenty (D-Ward 4) and David A. Catania (I-At Large.)

    "You have Catania on one side and Fenty on the other talking at you for 13 hours. That's enough to drive anyone crazy," Evans said.

    Watching the council late Tuesday, a viewer could get the impression that Cropp had been confused. When she first explained her amendment -- which voids the stadium financing package unless the mayor delivers about $150 million in private investments -- Cropp said it would take effect only if the mayor blatantly ignores a viable private-financing package.

    Evans initially described the amendment as "friendly." But after Fenty, Catania and Schwartz demanded clarification, Cropp explained, to everyone's surprise, that the stadium deal would die without private funds.
     
  3. Fatty FatBastard

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2001
    Messages:
    15,916
    Likes Received:
    159
    Max: We'll agree to disagree on the Hotel. I was a night auditor in college, and I can guarantee you there is no way a 200 room hotel stays open when they're renting 2 of those rooms a night. It wouldn't happen.

    And you're heading the wrong way for progress. I wouldn't expect anything to happen on Texas on the way to the courthouse. Too many "bad" people around a county jail for that to happen. Try btw MMP and the financial district or btw MMP and the Toyota Center. This is where I'm seeing development happening. And it's not over by a long shot.

    If property is overvalued right now, that may indeed be why the transformation isn't happening overnight. It doesn't mean people aren't ready to go there once those values make a correction.
     
  4. RocketManJosh

    RocketManJosh Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2003
    Messages:
    5,881
    Likes Received:
    726
    I don't think there is anyway downtown is revitalize AT ALL 5, 10 , or even 15 blocks away without any stadium down there. I understand you think it is just a cooincidence, but I just can't believe that.
     
  5. DCkid

    DCkid Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2001
    Messages:
    9,661
    Likes Received:
    2,706
    Nationals Face an Unhappy New Year

    By Thomas Boswell
    Thursday, December 16, 2004


    Major League Baseball has given the District a stay of execution until Dec. 31.

    When the ball drops on New Year's Eve, Washington can say goodbye to the "Nationals," all the joy they might have brought and all the urban rejuvenation they might have ignited on the Anacostia waterfront, unless some sanity is restored.

    Perhaps because he just learned last week that he had escaped a serious brush with cancer, Commissioner Bud Selig is infused with the holiday spirit. At any rate, he and his sport have given the District an enormous Christmas gift: a second chance.

    In the coming days, Washington and its infuriating, disingenuous D.C. Council must make a simple, straightforward decision. Do they want to accept the deal for a new stadium that was struck between the sport and Mayor Anthony A. Williams? Or don't they?

    That's it. Yes. Or no.

    Either answer is acceptable. City councils decide such things. It's their job.

    What is utterly and absolutely not acceptable is the current behavior of Council Chairman Linda Cropp and nine of her colleagues who want to bait-and-switch baseball into a radically altered deal than the one which Williams negotiated exhaustively -- as his city's official representative -- over a two-year period.

    In business, a deal is a deal, something Cropp refuses to understand. For her any deals, those made by others or even ones she has agreed to herself in recent days, are not deals at all. They are just a starting point for her next demand. And if she finally hears "No" to one of her new conditions, as she did on Tuesday from baseball, she threatens to sabotage the whole deal.

    Finally, yesterday, baseball became completely disgusted and drew a line in the sand.

    "The legislation approved by the District of Columbia City Council last night . . . is inconsistent with our carefully negotiated agreement and is wholly unacceptable," said MLB's Bob DuPuy in a statement. "Because our stadium agreement provides for a December 31, 2004 deadline, we will not entertain offers for permanent relocation of the club until that deadline passes.

    "In the meantime, the club's baseball operations will proceed, but its business and promotional activities will cease."

    In other words, baseball will honor its deal, right down to the Dec. 31 deadline. After that, it will start the work of moving the team to another city. According to highly placed sources, no games will be played at RFK Stadium next season if the Washington ballpark deal dies. "It's fair to assume that's out of the question," said one source.

    When you make a deal with baseball, they honor it. If you break a deal with them, you're out. Which is as it should be. But then baseball is big league, unlike the D.C. Council, which is bush league and just damaged the city's reputation coast-to-coast.

    If you want to see how atrociously the District is acting, then simply put the shoe on the other foot.

    Suppose that, over the last few weeks, it was baseball, not Washington, that was constantly trying to renegotiate. What if Selig had changed his demands at least a half-dozen times, always upping the ante and using brinksmanship to get his way?

    What if Selig had canceled votes within baseball ownership or delayed approvals to try to muscle Washington into concessions? And what if, most outrageously, he had signed off on the deal in private, then reneged?

    What on earth would we be calling Selig right now? Of course, rich, powerful sports commissioners are fair game in this society. When they act badly, we call them out. But Cropp and her cohorts, who are acting in exactly the same manner as our hypothetical Selig, get off almost unchallenged .

    The Council claims to be fighting for the poor of the District when it is far more likely that it is in the process of killing a development deal, with baseball as its centerpiece, that would bring significant benefits, not costs, to those very constituents.

    Council members claim they are protecting citizen tax dollars when they know that not one cent of public money is earmarked for the Anacostia waterfront project. All funds to back the bonds to build the park will come from the team's new owners (rich), the top 11 percent of local Washington businesses (prosperous) and fans who attend games (many affluent). As for the District's pot of money collected through taxes -- called "the general fund" -- not a cent would be taken out of it.

    As a bonus, more than 80 percent of Nationals fans, about two million a year, would come from the suburbs and spend tens of millions of discretionary entertainment dollars in the District.

    Cropp and others on the council, like Adrian Fenty and David Catania, realize all this. They just don't want the public to figure it out. They prefer to round up cheap votes for themselves by bashing baseball rather than bringing a team back to Washington, bringing urban development to a blighted area and adding millions of dollars to the city's tax base.

    The Council should be reminded that baseball doesn't care how Washington funds its stadium. The sport has specifically stated that if Washington can get private funding, that's okay with them, as long as it's nailed down, not pie in the sky. All the Council needs to do to solve the current mess is pass an amendment that provides the District with time to pursue the kind of private funding that Cropp espouses but, if it cannot be found, that the city will fulfill its promise to build the new park itself.

    We should also remember that Washington's own mayor, not some ogre in baseball, dreamed up the current funding plan that so infuriates the Council's pols. The whole concept, and it's a brilliantly original one, came from Williams's office. Of course, Council members, especially ones like Cropp who want to be mayor, have nothing to gain by approving the successful creations of a rival politician. It's easier to destroy them, and then claim that you saved the public money.

    If Cropp had not chosen the nuclear option on Tuesday night, she might have continued to badger baseball into a few frills. But now she's forced the game to take a stand or else look like a patsy in any future negotiations with anybody.

    "How can we trust Cropp now? When does it end?" said a baseball official yesterday. "She has signed off, given her word, said the deal was done, more than once. Then she just changes her mind and acts like that's a normal way to do business.

    "It's disgraceful. Baseball has been accused of a lot of things in the last 100 years. But never anything like this. They just went back on their word. If Cropp thinks she's going to do that and [still] get a team, she's making a horrible mistake."

    The clock is ticking. The ball drops at midnight on New Year's Eve. Will the District's final hopes for baseball fall with it?
     
  6. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 1999
    Messages:
    48,984
    Likes Received:
    1,445
    Yeah, Max...forget published reports and a well-connected brother in-law, FFB was a night auditor in college.
     
  7. MadMax

    MadMax Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Messages:
    76,683
    Likes Received:
    25,924
    Fatty --- it's a WEEKEND RATE!!!! weekend occupancy! there is no question of it. it's published. i'm still looking for the source. but i can tell you from talking with those who know as well, that's it. i didn't say it was 1% every night. they sell out rooms for conventions during weekdays. and they sell more rooms during the week, generally. i checked the chronicle's website..and i think i found the article..but i have to pay to get it, and frankly, i'm not that concerned of convincing you of what i already know. but again...who stays at the Inn at the Ballpark this weekend, for example, assuming there's no convention??

    development between MMP and Toyota Center?? where?? they're putting in a big park in front of the convention center..is that what you mean?? the Park Shops are there...but they've always been there.

    my point is that you can't cite that area now as a gleaming example of redevelopment from a ballpark. after 4 years, we're no where close to the kind of development we see around other ballparks in the country. no where close. but if we NEVER see development down Texas...and never down the street with the name that escapes me (which runs parallel to Texas in between Texas and Congress)...then i think that sucks. those are the "entryways" to the stadium...that's the immediate neighborhood where the fans pour out onto after the game. if you don't have restaurants/bars in a 3-4 block area around the ballpark, you're talking about different development than i'm talking about.
     
  8. MadMax

    MadMax Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Messages:
    76,683
    Likes Received:
    25,924
    you're a huge fan and a spectator at MMP a lot...what do you think of the development around the park???
     
  9. Cohen

    Cohen Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 1999
    Messages:
    10,751
    Likes Received:
    6
    Originally posted by MadMax
    ...Have you guys been to Denver to see Coors??

    Completed in 1995. 9 years


    How about to Baltimore??

    Completed in 1992. 12 years


    ...Houston is a poor example of that right now, frankly.

    Completed in 2000. 4 years

    hmmmm....
     
  10. MadMax

    MadMax Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Messages:
    76,683
    Likes Received:
    25,924
    Cohen -- Coors Field development happened, very, very quickly. By 97, the area was COMPLETELY transformed. I mean completely. It is absolutely amazing. That's a fine example of a ballpark making a HUGE difference in a neighborhood.

    I don't know how quickly the development happened around Camden, so I'll retract the example just to make you happy.
     
  11. MadMax

    MadMax Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Messages:
    76,683
    Likes Received:
    25,924
    As for the DC area...my understanding is they will be razing homes to make this happen in this area??? Yikes. That's pretty rough.
     
  12. Fatty FatBastard

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2001
    Messages:
    15,916
    Likes Received:
    159
    :rolleyes:

    You do know what a night auditor does for a hotel, right? Finish reading my statement before you chastise.

    And what exactly of value did that statement bring?
     
  13. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 1999
    Messages:
    48,984
    Likes Received:
    1,445
    You're basically calling MadMax a liar. That's why I posted that.
     
  14. RocketManJosh

    RocketManJosh Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2003
    Messages:
    5,881
    Likes Received:
    726
    Regardless of the effects a stadium has on downtown or the economy.

    The bottom line is that DC basically backed out of a deal to build a stadium and MLB is getting crushed for wanting to move it to a different area. It makes no sense at all.
     
  15. Fatty FatBastard

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2001
    Messages:
    15,916
    Likes Received:
    159
    That's an hyperbole if I ever saw one.

    Saying I disagree is calling someone a liar... hmmm..
     
  16. MadMax

    MadMax Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Messages:
    76,683
    Likes Received:
    25,924
    MLB is a group of big boys with big pockets and serious lawyers. You don't move the team and start selling the product until you have an agreement firmly in place. They drug their feet forever on this deal...and then all of a sudden got in such a hurry to make it happen, that they put the cart before the horse.
     
  17. DCkid

    DCkid Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2001
    Messages:
    9,661
    Likes Received:
    2,706
    Whatever happened to a deal is a deal? Silly MLB, don't they realize that a promise really isn't a promise! All they did was agree to a deal that was formulated by the mayor. From all indications, the mayor had the approval of the council only to be sabotaged in the eleventh hour. Ninety-five percent of the bashing on this should be directed at DC - not the MLB.
     
  18. MadMax

    MadMax Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Messages:
    76,683
    Likes Received:
    25,924
    when this much jack is on the line...you don't have a deal until it's signed.

    google statute of frauds for fun.
     
  19. DCkid

    DCkid Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2001
    Messages:
    9,661
    Likes Received:
    2,706
    Okay, obviously you're right in this instance. However, I would expect that most "frauds" involve at least one party that should be much more pedestrian than the city council of the nation's capital. You would expect them to be somewhat more honorable than this.
     
  20. Fegwu

    Fegwu Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    5,162
    Likes Received:
    4
    I disagree to the notion that one is a liar if he or she disagrees with another folk's opinion. He or she is just a disagree-er.


    PS. I am not really mad at Chairperson Croppe. I beleiev she did not do this for any political reason rather out of the depth of her heart. I could be wrong.

    PSS. MMP and TC has been good for down town Houston. Even if it is just on moral boosting. The economic benefits are noteworthy even if it only perceived.
     

Share This Page