David Hasselhoff claims he had a hand in Berlin Wall falling

Lol! Interesting that you are dismissing the answer without even knowing what it is...


...or is that you DO know what it is, which in and of itself might be very telling?

Besides, these aren't my choices. This is according to several sources. I am not sure why you disavow 4 individuals being more influencial than whover you feel was influencial. The former does not undermine the reality of the latter, it's merely about recongnition for same.

 

This is no different than Republicans claiming Saint Ronny was the only person responsible for the collapse of the Soviet Union.

 

Sad. Fact is fact. If you don't beleive it, and think it was said for some other purpose, that says more about you than me.

BTW, thanks for trying to help me again. It must just be me, but your help still seems to resemble insults. I know, I know, I'm just insecure. Guess I was wrong all along...


LOL.

 

Wow, I never would have guessed that JAG is really a box with a red x in it!

Thanks for letting us know that, Jackie!

 

i thought he still was

 

I'll bite.

The easy bit: Who are Reagan and Gorbachev, Alex?
(this means Hasselhoffs been ignored by your sources)

The wild guess...

What is Poland? (Walesa and the Pope??) -

I'm grasping with my guess -- and opening myself to ridicule by my better read brethren...but too curious on your answer.

Macbeth? Jackie? enlighten me.

 

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Not a big fan of Il Popa, per se, and his obsession with bringing down communism had many negative side effects, particularly in South America, but overall and in Europe it was extreme, particularly behind the scenes. ( He had a 24-line ot the WH, and was regularly visited by US intelligence officials for reports.) Walesa, many feel, was THE single greatest figure in undermining the belief that the USSR couldn't be opposed.

There were many figures involved, of course, but these four are perceived, accurately or not, to have had the greatest effect.

 

I should have answered confidently, without hedging my bets, so ya'll would have thought i knew my history

But what was Jackie's concern over the question? Was it just that it snubbed the German politicians role, or was there something there that's particularly contentious?

 

I think he had an oobjection to the source...I'll leave it to your imagination as to whether that means source of the information, or source of the post...

 

You want texts? On-line sources aren't my strength, but I'll take a look...

 

My source, Jackie, was that Poland was the only country i could think of with two semi-influential 'leaders'.

Not really sure if they were significantly bigger players than leaders in Hungary, Germany, or elsewhere, or the general economic collapse -- but compared to Hasselhoff -- I think they were pretty influential.

 

I'll let it go at that!

Let's not drive a David Hasselhoff thread to the D&D.

 

As I thought...without my ever having specified who I was talking about, you knew. Doesn't that tell you something, considering my statement was never about fact, but about perception? If it was easy for you to conclude who I was referring to without mentioning names, might you yourself not be refelcting that perception?


Some sources:

The Gorbachev Factor by Archie Brown (Oxford University Press, 1996)

Gorbachev, Yeltsin, and Putin: Political Leadership in Russia's Transition edited by Archie Brown and Lilia Shevtsova (Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, 2001)

The Soviet System: From Crisis to Collapse edited by Alexander Dallin and Gail W Lapidus (Westview Press, 1995)

Russia and the Idea of the West: Gorbachev, Intellectuals and the End of the Cold War by Robert D English (Columbia University Press, 2000)

Final Days: The Inside Story of the Collapse of the Soviet Union by Andrei Grachev (Westview Press, 1995)

Democratization and Revolution in the USSR 1985-1991 by Jerry F Hough (Brookings Institution, 1997)

Armageddon Averted: The Soviet Collapse 1970-2000 by Stephen Kotkin (Oxford University Press, 2001)

Russia's Unfinished Revolution: Political Change from Gorbachev to Putin by Michael McFaul (Cornell University Press, 2001)

Autopsy on an Empire: The American Ambassador's Account of the Collapse of the Soviet Union by Jack F Matlock Jr (Random House, 1995)

Lenin's Tomb: The Last Days of the Soviet Empire by David Remnick (Viking, 1993)


As far as specifics, I can cite a few:

Ladies and gentlemen, if it had not been for the Reagan defense buildup, if the United States had not demonstrated that it is willing not only to stand up for freedom but to devote considerable sums of money to defending it, we probably would not be sitting here today having a free discussion between Russians and Americans.

- Boris Pinsker, Soviet Economist.



Some 100 prominent Poles have formed a committee to rechristen one of Warsaw's central squares 'Reagan Square.' In this they show a splendid sense of history, and of gratitude. The committee's honorary chairman is Marian Krzaklewski, head of Solidarity, who says, 'Reagan was the main author of the victory of the Free World over the Evil Empire.' National Review's old friend and contributor, Radek Sikorski, now Poland's deputy foreign minister, is chairman of the committee. The square in question is currently called 'Constitution Square,' and the constitution it refers to is the bogus, Communist one of 1952. Reagan Square would join plazas named after George Washington and Woodrow Wilson. Obviously enough, we wish the committee well.

- National Review, July 26, 1999, pg. 12, column 1


On Walesa, explaining his Noble Prize, TMOTY, etc...

His leadership having ended Communist rule and planted the seeds of freedom and democracy in his beloved country, Walesa was ready to take on a new role to serve Poland. On December 9, 1990, he became its first democratically elected President, winning more than 74 percent of the votes cast. His term in office set Poland firmly on the path to becoming a free market democracy. Through his unwavering commitment, Walesa made Poland a model of economic and political reform for the rest of Eastern Europe to follow and earned it the honor of receiving one of the first invitations to join an expanded NATO. He now heads the Lech Walesa Institute whose aim is to advance the ideals of democracy and free market reform throughout Eastern Europe and the rest of the world.




etc. etc. But most of all, if you read interviews with Gorbachev, who I'm sure youll not duspute was among the greatest influences, he credits RR, the Pope, and Walesa as being the 3 other most prominent players. This was replayed in the series Cold War, if you've seen it. Now I'll grant you that you may have a greater understanding of the fall of the USSR than Gorbachev, SJC, but again, I was talking about perception.

 

Oy...


It's called accumulated knowledge, SJC. I cited you tons of texts which assert this, cited prominent players which say the same, etc. But you want direct quotes on hand which 'prove' the general opinion of historians/jornalists. I'm not even sure of such quotes are possible. I would also find it difficult to find quotes which "prove" that Churchill, Stalin, and FDR were considered by most historians to be the most influencial figures in defeating the Nazis...I could find quotes that assert that they WERE the most influencial, and I doubt many would disagree that they are generally conceived to be the top three, but to find quotes "proving" that they are considered to be the most influencial would be difficult, as it's almost impossible to prove, period.


You say that it's "silly" to classify this...I'll even agree...silly, as in not serious, trivial , even. Just like it would be silly to ask a similar question about WWII. But that would neither make it incorrect, as you claimed, nor explain your insulting behaviour in this regard. But we know the real reasons for that, no? You're helping...