No, that's the first time I've said that. I'm getting more and more frustrated with the "excuses" copout. BS. I have never referred to my opinion as fact. The FACTS have been listed by others over and over here--the objective facts from which I derive my opinion. My opinion is no better than anyone else's (despite my rant above which I regret). I feel the same way about your discussion in this particular argument. Myself and others have refuted your points over and over, and you've offered nothing new. Nothing. Just repeating the same BS about "tired of excuses". I'm engaging you and anyone else in this discussion because I enjoy it. We typically agree on a lot of stuff, bro. I won't take it personal if you won't. For example, I won't call your take on this "myopic and misguided" if you won't refer to my mountain of supporting evidence as "excuses". It was arrogant, and OTT. I'm sorry. I agree, but couldn't that be measured? Would the fact that there are *far* fewer sacks, and a higher completion rate, this season, point out that perhaps he has improved in that area? If you say that he holds on to the ball too long (and I haven't seen *anyone* say that in this discussion), it's something at least quantifiable that can merit real discussion. Not this "he doesn't have 'it'; he's not a leader, the fact that the rest of the entire team wouldn't make other franchises's practice squads is only an excuse" BS. In this entire discussion, I've seen one person post some real, observable criticism of DCarr's technique. Someone else came right behind him, however, and shot most of his points down. But at least what he talked about was tangible stuff.
frankly, i'm doing a poor job of just trying to avoid your posts on here about this. it's hard not to take a personal jab personally. i'm not assigning the excuses to you...i'm not criticizing your performance as a QB. the excuses belong to David. my opinions which you've described as "wrong," "misguided", "myopic" etc. impart something about me, personally. you believe you've refuted points. the fact you believe that tells me all i need to know. why in the world would you be so interested in refuting my opinion?? i'm ready for a change. i feel like 4.5 years is enough to see a guy play and make decisions on. i don't like what i see from david. period. the end. my favorite color is blue. i like the dave matthews band. the astros are my favorite sports franchise. get busy refuting.
apparently he wasn't part of the solution. here's what i'm convinced of...i'm not going to change your mind. i didn't set out to try.
Actually, DCarr hasn't made any excuses for himself. Every time I hear the guy, he's taking blame for losses and saying he needs to make plays. Since DCarr is not involved in the discussion, it's entirely plausible for someone to infer that you said he was making excuses for DCarr--when they're not excuses. No, they don't. At least not in my book. Well, first of all others have refuted them far more and better than I have. And I could say, "the fact that you don't see it tells me all I need to know." I mean, statistic after statistic has been placed in this discussion, and tons of sound logic, and you never address any of it. All you say is, "the leader takes the blame. I'm tired of the excuses." I'm not. It's a discussion. About five other people have refuted your opinion. And after 4.5 years, I think he looks good and we can address other more (much more) serious deficiencies. You disagree. Fine. You know, for whatever point in this discussion my takes on this took on a tone that sounded personal, I am deeply sorry. We're discussing a blooming game. You and I agree on a lot of stuff. I'm sorry I came across heavy-handed and arrogant. It doesn't feel good to know you've offended someone you've never met.
first of all...all good...apology accepted, and i'll say the same right back to you. i don't see refutation in david carr's stats. do you mean from the 4 games he's played this season that didn't suck? i know you don't mean last year. i know you don't mean the second half of 2004. i "get" the argument that he has had an awful team around him. that sucks for everyone. but me...personally..just me...i haven't seen enough from david carr to suggest i'd want him on my team as my starting QB. i'll fully admit, my opinion isn't worth much...no one pays me for my opinions on football.
Do you aknowledge that Carr's ability to show you something/lack of development could have been affected by the quality of the team around him thus far? The team that until this year, has failed to give him adequate/consistent protection that does help somewhat in the development of adequate NFL QB skills.
yes..i absolutely acknowledge it....to a point. what changed in 2004, for example, from the 1st half to the 2nd half. i knew david klingler, personally. i made these very same arguments for him. in the end, they didn't matter.
I don't know what you were watching that year... but for me, the second half of 2004 included harder opponents, combined with the previous regime's coaching staff's inability to make adjustments to an offense that was seriously restricted by the lack of anything that could be confused for an offensive line (hence the quick outs, the dink and dumps to domanick... the lack of any downfield game whatsoever that was actually Carr's strength in college... teams figured out that offense pretty quickly). Then, they had the audacity to say "the offensive line was not the problem... we were 7-9!!" after the season. Then, it all came apart in 2005. Looking at the team now, Chester Pitts (back then playing out of position at LT) is the only guy still remaining just 2 years later... from an offensive line that apparently was not the problem (McKinney is done... even if he's still on the roster). Offensive lines stay together for YEARS in this league... our non-problem line was disbanded in favor of free agents and 3rd round draft picks this year. All those things were the first to come into my mind... before I considered whether or not Carr just mysteriously "lost it" after he was on track to make his first pro-bowl. Anything's possible... but certainly some things in this discussion are more probable as to what really happened in the second half of 2004. (btw... Klingler never came into a condition as bad as Carr's... and in the end his numbers were WORSE than david's. Not a good comparison).
sorry; been at a conference all week, so it's a two-fer: actually, that’s merely to deflect my growing apathy with fans overly anxious to anoint this guy or that one the next great whatever before they’ve actually done anything of substance to deserve such praise. leinart played well – not great. he was handed six turnovers and three drives starting inside the opponent’s 35-yard line. had YOU, clutch, merely fallen down 9 times and gained zero yardage, the team still would have been in position to kick 3 fgs. so, yes, i feel quite secure saying the vast majority of nfl qbs (including david carr) could have matched leinart’s td and 2 fgs, considering none of those three scoring drives gained more than 25 yards. leinart’s lone touchdown was 26 yards; not a red zone score. and it was a short pass that boldin (THE best wr in football) then took to the end zone on a nearly spectacular run. otherwise, he was 1/2 for 3 yards in the red zone on those three drives. as for “elevating” teammates, etc – it doesn’t exist. if leinart was able to “elevate” the performance of those around him, neil rackers would have hit the game-winning field goal. it’s a silly, stupid, worthless measurement that no one can actually measure that has nonetheless taken on a mythic quality. what makes someone a “leader”? when it comes to nfl qbs, usually a wealth of great surrounding talent. name a great “leader” throughout nfl history, and i’ll likely name 3-4 hall of fame-level teammates and or coaches. about the only guy who defies this is elway and even he couldn’t win the big one until terrell davis showed up. with regards to flip-flopping on carr and my apparent need to be alpha male, or whatever: proclaiming carr the least of our worries is a long way from proclaiming him a great qb. he’s shown marked improvement this year; enough to convince me that had chicago handed him three turnovers inside their own 35, he would have been able to generate leinart-like results. well, it’s a good thing you weren't the oilers' gm in 1988. in his first four years, warren moon threw 61 tds and 77 ints; had an average qb rating of 70.4 (which would have ranked 32nd last year) and led his team to 20 victories, two more wins than carr, who hasn't had the luxury of playing with rozier, white, highsmith, jeffires, munchak, matthews, steinkuler - all former first round picks on the oilers' roster in 1988. in fact, carr is currently playing with 5 former first round picks... 4 of which are on defense. so there’s no possibility vy is skewering your view of carr? none whatsoever? carr’s not being unfavorably judge by your deification of vy? actually, the chimp wouldn’t need us. i COMPLETELY understand where you’re coming from; i gave up on him last year. i no longer cared why he wasn’t performing; just that he wasn’t. i felt it was time to move on. but i’m singing a different tune this year because a) i truly believe the organization abandoned him; b) thus far, i’ve seen enough improvement to be encouraged that if, god forbid, they surround him with talent, he can be aikman-good. i believe in kubiak. you may ultimately be right; but for this season, if i don;t have carr's rehabilitation to root for, then i can't think of any other reason to even watch these games.
Wow. That's a crazy comparison. I'm still wondering why no one's b****ing at AJ for dropping at least three first down passes that hit his hands.
ric -- i don't think i have the strength to continue this discussion! great point about moon. no, i had not considered that. if david carr turns into a hall of famer i owe you a steak dinner...i'm guessing you wouldn't make that bet the other way around. at some point there will be change for the sake of change. you can call that a good decision or a bad decision. but it will happen. maybe at the end of this season...we'll see.
I don't think anyone's arguing that David Carr will be a Hall of Famer. The whole point to all of this is that he's about the last thing we need to be worrying about on this current team.
their offense could have been one of the most effiecient in the league... and their defense still would have lost games for them so far this year. they've started all over again... year 1a all over again. I know some fans don't like to hear that for a franchise that's technically existed for 4 years before this, but when you see what's left of that "depth" we built up with all those "extra" picks that we kept around (10 of 19 are failed/gone)... but its the truth.
Of course they do, but the new regime is having to pick up the pieces from a completely terrible front office that made bad pick after bad pick.
Hey, I am a big VY proponent, I think he is the best franchise QB prospect in some time, but that is neither here nor there for the current discussion. I also think Carr is a lot better and with more upside than people around here credit. I think Carr is well in the top half of the league QBs both current skill and in potential--a lot of QBs many consider better are just in much better situations (running game and defenses behind them that put them in low-risk passing situations), and the Texans should continue building around Carr at this point. But I think I am on your ignore list so you may not know I am on your side here in defending Carr, and in the Texans rolling with David Carr for their future.
