To quote torocan's sig: The problem with the "eye test" is most of us are half blind. http://wagesofwins.com/2012/03/22/yo...games-so-what/
That was your definition. I was specifically asking larvsv8... who didn't give a role definition, just a general platitude regarding NBA players. And setting aside discussions of whether Bev is a better player or not (won't ever be resolved given the polarized opinions), that doesn't address the question of being a better PG. Omer Asik is a better player than Lin. Is he a better PG? Even if you believe that Beverley is a better player than Lin, or fits better in the line up than Lin, does that make him a better PG vs the typical definition of a Point Guard?
Beverley is a better defender, better three point shooter and protects the ball better. On an elite team, the elite role player is more important. Lin can do things that Beverley cannot.... but those are not needed.
Rockets refer to Beverley and Lin as a PGs. You asking for a definition of PG is an attempt to win an argument on semantics. But to answer your question, I always liked the definition of you are who you guard. Since Beverley typically guards guys that are designated PG, he is a PG.
Therefore he is a better "fit" for the Rockets. I could not agree more. I have argued that since the beginning of the season. But on most "normally" constructed NBA teams Lin is the much better point guard. In the NBA point guards most similar to Bev average 7 more assists per game. Bev fits his role on the Rockets perfectly. But it is a singular point guard role in the NBA.
"Content not found." Try using xRAPM or RPM. Look at the stat "GS" this season. Stats historically have a hard time quantifying defense.
Strawman. The Rockets as currently constructed do not require the services of a "true point guard" That is the disconnect between Lin fanatics and the rest of us, we recognize that when you have a ball dominant player such as Harden as your best player, your point guard does not need to do the common things that people classically consider the skillset of a PG. What the Rockets need at the point(while Harden is the primary offensive focus) is a guy who can defend and spot up for an occasional three....Lin is better than Beverly at neither of those skills this year. Now, when Jeremy comes in off the bench and has one of his good games(hitting shots, good passes, smart aggressive drives) then the Rockets are damn near unbeatable. This is why I still do want him here, he is a skilled player who can help this team be deadly.......all he has to do is play his game in the way that the Rockets need him to.
Very, very well said. It also emphasizes that the Rockets are running a unique system in the NBA. One that does not depend, or for that matter have the opportunity for a prototypical NBA point guard. Bev succeeds because of the system, not because he is a good NBA point guard.
Personally I don't think it's a semantic argument at all. If someone states that they believe Beverley is a better fit on the Rockets as a starter, it's an opinion that I can buy. To say that Beverley is better as a Point Guard is a very specific statement, it implies that based upon a fairly universally defined role in Basketball that his skill set is superior. And I don't buy the "you are who you guard" part. Andre Iguodala is asked to guard the opposing team's best player, including PG's. Does that make him a PG? Beverley is talented and very good at certain things. And if you said he's a very good 3+D player, or a fantastic perimeter defensive guard those all fall within traditional definitions. Traditional definitions... Prototypical PG/Pass first - Facilitates offense, minimal scoring. Rondo, Nash. Combo PG/Scoring PG - Scoring + facilitation. Dragic, Westbrook Defensive guard - Perimeter defense, may or may not include scoring. Beverley, Bradley 2 of those definitions are for PG's. One is a generic term for a guard that plays the 1 or 2 positions but serves as a defensive stopper. Also note that great perimeter defense is not included as part of the traditional PG role definitions. Yes, it's good to have it, but it's not required. Nash, Lillard, and Curry are all defensive sieves. IE, it's not typically a required skill set to the position.
Miami Heat would love Beverley as well. Typically championship teams either have guys defensive points or star PGs.
Pretty sure positions are a spectator creation intended to attempt to explain how that player typically performs on the court. Most players don't really refer to themselves as PG or SG, rather as just guard or forward. Recently I think some have even expanded the positions list to 10-15 to further capture all the types of players on the court. I think Lin is better at running a pick and roll than Beverley, possiblely also in transition. Other than that, Beverley seems to be better at just about anything else. I was formerly in the Lin is the better player camp, but he has shown me over the course of the year that he just has too many holes in his game to be the better player.
Is Lin a better PG than Beverley, vs is Lin a better PG than Beverley on the Rockets. Those actually are two seperate questions. I suppose you can argue that there is no such thing as a good player outside the context of the team on which he plays, but that seems a bit excessive. So it's not a strawman.
I refer you to my detailed discussion of xRPM, and my view on the use of xRPM in terms of statistical comparison. http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?p=8834435#post8834435 It's not a straw man. The poster did not say that Beverley was a better fit (reasonable argument), or that the Rockets did not need a traditional PG (also a reasonable argument). I responded specifically to the statement that Bev is a better PG. That's why I asked him to define his definition of PG. De-rail, that you could argue.
I dont consider fan rumors or fan desires in my basketball analysis. While I do believe that the Rockets asked about him(I would be mad if Morey didnt ask considering all the talk about him moving), I dont believe they were in any way close to bringing him in. Either way, it doesnt matter to what I was talking about....the reason why the Rockets chose Beverly over Lin for the starting position.
