1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Dare I Hope?

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by IdStrosfan, May 31, 2025.

  1. Nick

    Nick Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    50,768
    Likes Received:
    17,139
    Pitching health has nothing to do with "luck"... its an expected risk based on how arms are used now to the point that teams have calculated that into their team-planning and contract offerings.

    And even when a pitcher is "healthy"... they're going to be prone for bad days or bad weeks (if the league is adjusting) and are constant works in progress due to the scouting reports. Or until Bregman tells them to ditch a certain pitch, etc.
     
  2. IdStrosfan

    IdStrosfan Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2021
    Messages:
    8,712
    Likes Received:
    10,922
    Then how do you explain teams like the Mariners having rotations go entire seasons basically unscathed ( before this year)

    If its not luck, what is it?
     
  3. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Messages:
    26,278
    Likes Received:
    16,603
    When things are as complicated without a clear solution to yield positive results as pitcher health, a lot of it is luck. Teams have pitchers pitch the way do hoping for luck in regards to health. There are some strategies to mitigate it, but overall, teams still wait until the trade deadline to trade for whoever is healthy.
     
  4. Nick

    Nick Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    50,768
    Likes Received:
    17,139
    Its the nature of the job. This year its catching up with them.

    The Astros have had good years too. 2018 was one of the best.. till it wasn't (in the playoffs....Lance had already torn his UCL, but still pitched... and Morton was being asked to retire).

    The emphasis on max effort at all times and all things spin related... combined with pitch clock lack of recovery... makes this as much a part of the game as any football injury.
     
    Snake Diggit likes this.
  5. Nick

    Nick Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    50,768
    Likes Received:
    17,139
    Luck... nature of the job as currently being cultivated... you can label it however you want.

    The human arm was never meant to throw overhand, let alone with max spin or consistently 95+ mph. Humans haven't evolved to be able to "build up to this" (minus PED usage). If they could go back to nursing arms with the expectation that they'd be throwing 300 innings at a fraction of the strain, I'm sure they would.... but then again, arms/shoulders broke down then as well, but before the current recon techniques most of those injuries were career enders (hence they had no choice but to conserve).
     
  6. IdStrosfan

    IdStrosfan Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2021
    Messages:
    8,712
    Likes Received:
    10,922
    Still don't see how its not luck.

    Sure, everyone knows its a potential result but some pitchers get hurt and some don't.

    Bad luck or good luck.
     
  7. Nick

    Nick Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    50,768
    Likes Received:
    17,139
    Fine... its just the genetically blessed arms that don't get hurt (but do eventually).

    There's no way to test for that, however... so one either expects pitching reinforcement to always be a part of the game, or you just pray. You still have guys throwing their max effort/stuff as the most effective way of generating outs... and if theres an injury, there's an injury.

    I have bought into the "finite arm life" theory that more and more are seeing. The arm is only capable of a limited shelf-life of elite-level pitching. Whenever a team feels fit to unleash that (presuming they have the raw 'stuff' with command already) will drive promotions and big league usage.
     
    Snake Diggit and raining threes like this.
  8. Nick

    Nick Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    50,768
    Likes Received:
    17,139
    This is also fairly analogous to a lot of anecdotal anomalies that does not rule out the causation that pitching is a health hazard.


    Lots like to bring up how some people can smoke their whole lives, literally be on oxygen in their 90's... and are still smoking away. Others die of cancer in their 50's after a fraction of that time smoking.

    I'm not going to say the difference between those two outcomes is simply "luck".
     
  9. raining threes

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    18,439
    Likes Received:
    13,299
    I'm thinking you're overvaluing things.

    Blubaugh/Leon and either Treadwell or Cole.

    Lux is a good player, but not an elite player.
     
  10. lkrockets

    lkrockets Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2014
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    441
    Here me out here: it's some luck, and also some other things.
     
    roadtrip and IdStrosfan like this.
  11. BlindHog

    BlindHog Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2021
    Messages:
    2,184
    Likes Received:
    1,726
    Three guys I would not mind losing at all. That usually means you could not get a plug nickle for them. Incidentally what was once a plug nickle is currently worth about 7.25 cents.
     
  12. BlindHog

    BlindHog Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2021
    Messages:
    2,184
    Likes Received:
    1,726
    The exuberance of fearless youth and bad haircuts.
     
    AkeemTheDreem86 and IdStrosfan like this.
  13. PhiSlammaJamma

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 1999
    Messages:
    29,892
    Likes Received:
    7,998
    Hope has only been drafted 2x in baseball. He only lasted 1/3 of an inning. The other Hope ended with one career win and a 5.99 era.

    In the NBA, Hope was drafted once in 1950 by the Knicks. It never played. Not even one minute.
     
  14. raining threes

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    18,439
    Likes Received:
    13,299
    You're underrating Blubaugh and all Whitcomb and Chas need is a chance.
     
    Wulaw Horn likes this.
  15. PhiSlammaJamma

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 1999
    Messages:
    29,892
    Likes Received:
    7,998
    Me theory on pitching is you Prefontaine it. Get 'em to the majors early and let 'em throw. No pitch counts. No worries. Whatever happens-happens. The laundry list of injured pitchers is long. No doubt. They are failing everywhere. But the limitations have not helped. Good idea. No results to show it works. So you pay them well, and respect the rotation, but let them run and let them breathe. Most pitchers want that. For the Pitchers that want to extend their careers doing less, I'm ok with it, they have that right, so you work with 'em on how that can fit in with a different philosophy. If all the pitchers want less work, then the league has to act, but that comes with less pay. But I think most pitchers want to be out there longer and push tin.
     
    #95 PhiSlammaJamma, Jun 5, 2025
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2025
  16. Buck Turgidson

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Messages:
    100,080
    Likes Received:
    102,026
    Love it.
     
  17. Tomstro

    Tomstro Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2016
    Messages:
    25,558
    Likes Received:
    22,613
    David Clyde would like a word with you
     
  18. Marshall Bryant

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2018
    Messages:
    10,447
    Likes Received:
    6,185
    David Clyde saved the Rangers Franchise.
     
    raining threes likes this.
  19. Jags

    Jags Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2023
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    357
    This team is starting to grow on me.

    Didn’t know what their identity was early on, but they’re proving to be a tough, resilient, and clutch group.
     
  20. Snake Diggit

    Snake Diggit Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    14,765
    Likes Received:
    23,963
    They are coming into the easier part of their schedule. The next 3 weeks should be fun.
     
    desihooper and Jags like this.

Share This Page