The Cat - The Western Conference is a whole lot stronger now than it was back in 1994. Also, that type of occurrence was very rare and only happened that one yr, to get back in 1995, the Rockets had to acquire a second wheel, Clyde Drexler. Look at the 1-2 punches of the championship teams, Jordan-Pippen, Bird-McHale, Johnson-Jabbar, Thomas-Dumars, Duncan-Robinson, Olajuwon-Drexler, etc. 1994 was the exception not the rule. I have a lot of confidence in what Steve Francis can do, but he is going to need some help in this loaded Western Conference. If the Rockets add Croshere and basically cap themselves out long term with a hefty contract starting at 5.5 mil, they are staring mediocrity straight in the eyes. That is the worst position to be in. The Rockets need something resembling a star in the frontcourt, a player that can go against the top notch frontcourt players and provide an option up front in the 4th qtr. That is a bigger priority than adding another role player esp one that is going to cost the 9th pick and a hefty long term contract starting at 5.5 mil. Notice how far the one star teams ie. Detroit Pistons and Philadelphia 76ers have gotten. Is that the kind of future you want for the Rockets? ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net [This message has been edited by MManal (edited June 14, 2000).]
I have to agree with those that say go for the good players now and get even better players later if possible. Webber MAY be a possibility next year just as Croshere may be a possibility after this year is over. The way I see it, while Croshere may not be a superstar player, his impact on a game is very reminiscent to that of Cuttino Mobley, and we all love Mobley here. Croshere has that special roleplayer kind of quality (with a spark of leadership) that players like Mario Elie had (remember that 3 against Phoenix) or that Kenny Smith had at times (remember his three against Orlando in the Finals). These are the type of players that are definitely needed to win in the NBA these days. Take LA--both Ron Harper and, sadly enough, Glen Rice fill this role for them. But, you cry, what about a plan. You can't just go BLINDLY into the night. So here is a hypothetical plan. Try and sign Croshere by getting under the cap. That way we still get to keep the #9. Even if this isnt possible, go ahead and make that trade. Then, with our lineup, in the West, we might be a playoff team next year (definitely a 7 or 8) or will be at the end of the lottery. That way we still have a teens pick(and a shot at the lottery). Then, to land Webber (perhaps in a sing-n-trade) we can offer the Kings a slightly improved Cato and maybe throw in a role player or two. That way next year we would be dumping both Hakeems salary and Cato's while also having some of those players who dont even play for us no longer counting against us. OF course, I don't know the exact cap numbers/situation, etc, but I am sure the right players can be traded to get this to work. Then, by picking up a center through draft or through trade/FA, our lineup 2 years from now would be: C: acquired/Pig Miller PF: Webber/KT/Croshere SF: Croshere/Walt/Bullard SG: Anderson/Cuttino PG: Francis/Moochie/Cuttino Now, center problem aside, to me that is a MUCH better lineup than say, the Kings and Sonics of this past years playoff. Of course, this is all just guessing and hoping/speculation. But, you asked for a plan. And beside, to say that we can/may get Webber next year is also just guessing so it only further shows that we should go after the good players now. Croshere is good. I like him! ------------------ When I die I want to go peacefully like my grandfather. Not screaming like the passengers in the back seat!
The future of the NBA in the PF position is the 7 foot ninja, a` la KG. I really like Croshere's game (lots of hustle on the rebounding end, but not affraid of his offense). He could definitely start at small forward for us, but like Kenny (as much as I love him), he is not the solution at PF. This is where we need to make use of the rare Rockets lottery pick--- we WILL be in the playoffs next year, doubters--- "7 FOOT NINJAS" .......quote it! That is the future of the NBA. And without one, Houston will NOT go to the Finals. ------------------ The Wizard when asked about his WWJD bracelet: "It's my good luck charm. It stands for 'Walt Williams Just Doin' it'."
I understand what you are saying, but since when does the word NINJA describe tall, lanky, extremely athletic people. I mean you said 7 foot, so that tkes care of the tall part, but where did you get NINJA from. If I were trying to describe the future of the NBA through players such as KG I would use the word GAZELLE. 7 FOOT GAZELLES! ------------------ When I die I want to go peacefully like my grandfather. Not screaming like the passengers in the back seat!
I would have no problem giving up the #9 and the exception for Croshere. All you need to know about him is that he's in the Finals, and he's a big factor in the series. He's also a great shooter, and attacks the basket fearlessly, with great body control a la Shandon Anderson. The guy just looks, well, clutch. I could definitely see him playing the 4 at times as well. Does anybody really think we have a chance at stopping Garnett, Wallace, or Webber anyway? Nobody is going to stop those guys. They require double-teams. So why not create a mismatch on the other end by pulling them out on the floor with Croshere? They have to guard him because he can nail the three. They come out to get him, he beats them off the dribble. Versatility -- something Rudy T loves, and who are we to argue. Champions are made with clutch play. I like Croshere. Right now I'm thinking about a lineup of Francis, Mobley, Anderson, Croshere, and Cato...I like it. ------------------ Too-Rye-Aye!
Why does anyone think Chris Webber is a sure thing or close to it next season? aelliott or davo -- how much cap room are we slated to have next season? We better have $10 million atleast to make room for Webber ... and these days players don't like giving up their Bird Rights. Something like that is probably going to take a sign and trade -- if it's even possible. Or for that matter, it being what Webber wants. We shouldn't pass on adding a player like Croshere because we "might" get Webber next season. With that said... geez, I'd love to have Webber on this team. ------------------ NOTHING BUT .NET CLUTCHCITY.NET
Thank you for bringing that up Clutch! I've never once heard Webber even mention Houston, let alone any other team. Like MM said, a sign and trade is going to be virtually impossible. We're going to need alot of cap room to get him. That being said, I still think we should attempt to get Croshere. Croshere wouldn't be a go-to guy. He is a player that does the dirty work...scraps for boards and forces his man to play defense. One thing though, if he is going to count even $5 mil against the cap in a sign and trade...forget it. I also would not give up the $4.3 mil, #9 and Drew for him. He hasn't proved that much. ------------------ We need some meat in the post!
I would do this trade for Croshere, but I would want Indiana's #1 pick. I think we could get it, since it will be 27th(??). That pick doesn't carry much value because a first round pick gets guaranteed money. So we could have the pick and take a shot at maybe Donnell Harvey slipping to us, which would give a big athletic PF. If we don't like anyone who is available, pick someone and then give up the rights to them, like the Bulls did with Travis Knight. ------------------ - Beck Dream...bring back the goggles
There has been some talk about Croshere not being able to match up with the "NEW" PF's out there. I disagree. During our most successful stretch of games this year, Rudy was playing Walt at the 4. That included games against the Spurs, Sonics, and Jazz if I remember correctly. It also reminds me of the 95' playoffs when Horry ate up Horace Grant & Karl Malone. All of the announcers were talking about how Horry represented the "new style" of PF. It had nothing to do with his size. The defensive scheme allowed him to come off his man and offer weakside shot blocking. The offensive scheme left him open to hit three's when his man doubled down. We don't need to have a big bruiser in there just to beat Shaq. San Antonio most likely won't be a factor next year. They might not even have Duncan. In a couple of years (when we are getting strong) the Trailblazers will begin rebuilding. Every team has weaknesses. The trick is in designing a system that utilizes your players the best. Our guards are above average rebounders so perhaps we shouldn't expect our PF to pull down 11/gm. I think having a PF like Croshere and a center with good shot blocking skills (and no heart) to come from the weakside could work. The bottom line is that every team has a weakness at some position. Even Chicago had a Longley. We already tried to get all-stars at every position and that didn't work. If a big-time PF becomes available then I'm sure having Croshere won't hurt, and I'm sure the money could be found. He could always play the SF when we need a big lineup or push the PF over to center when we want to go big. The key to defending Duncan and Walace is in the speed of our double team. Very rarely would AC have to cover Garnett or Duncan 1-on-1. We can be a great team, it will just take the right system and enough time grow together. ------------------ "Stranger things have happened, but none stranger than this" - Commentator after a parachutist landed in the ring of a Holyfield fight
From watching the playoffs, Croshere can bang. As as in Jeff's thread, he's got 'it'. He's also young, which makes it even more impressive his ability to play team defense. As to why we need another superstar in two years in stead of Croshere now, I say: we don't. I agree that those are not guaranteed. How old is Webber, anyway? Francis will be hitting his prime as Webber's game fails. Anyway, Cuttino and Shandon are only getting better--I think it's not a bad bet that one of them will be better than Dumars (if you're going to include him as a star). One last remark to this: the team needs to show progress next year in order to attract a star-caliber FA the year after. Croshere would be a good improvement to the front court. As for cap space, I agree that somehow the team will make room. My guess from all the early summer 'inside' scoops on not expecting Cato to stick around is that we will be relieved of his big contract this year. Most likely we'll have some young guys to fill the middle, who can run and shoot from the outside (and there's always Olajuwon getting healthy, or else a 'surprise' retirement). And if they don't pan out, that leaves the year after and Hakeem's cap space to pick up the necessary talent. One last comment is that I don't like people's hypothetical lineups showing Shandon only at the 2 with Cuttino. Playing time's a huge issue, as well as the ability to put in both those guys at the same time. I agree with anyone saying that Croshere's ability to play the 3 with the 4 is a great bonus and fits in the Rox' flexibility in matchups. ------------------ BRR
MManal- first of all, the exception coupon doesn't have to all be used in one $4.5 mil shot. It can be used piece by piece. For instance, we could sign Croshere for $3.85 mil, send Drew and $2.85 of the exception to Indy. We would still have some left over in another trade situation. Second, so long as Les and Rudy are running things, and Houston continues to climb as one of the most favorable professional basketball hangouts, there is no way we will be locked into mediocrity with no way out. No way. Houston is a very favorable destination for many free agents, both because of organization dedicated to winning and the city. Rudy and Les are trade masterminds. Having talent on the team only opens up opportunities in trades. In general, you guys should stop looking for cap space to get free agents. The only way it's really working is in the very extreme examples of Orlando and Chicago, and we have yet to see just how successful they will be with their strategy. The new CBA is all about limiting player movement, and giving a player's present team the greatest advantage in keeping him. Teams will have to rely far more on the draft to find new talent, and trades to acquire players.
Croshere has some skills, but it is another thing to go prove your are an above average starter in this league. It is much easier to play on a good team and be effective when the focus is on all the other players (compare Othella's effectiveness as a bench player or occasional starter to when he had to start every day and your opponents set their sites on your weaknesses). Personally, I don't think Croshere's defense is that good. He didn't seem to match up well against Milwalkee's small forwards (too slow for them) and seems to have more trouble matching up with PF (say compared to how Dale Davis guarded Ratliff and the Knicks big people). He is beating on AC, but that AC Green for Pete’s sake. Granted my standards are pretty high, but I am just saying Webber, Sheed, Garnett, Malone, McDyess, A-Rahim and maybe even Rogers and Robinson from the West would all abuse Croshere pretty bad on the offensive end. That said, I still would like Croshere on the team, because he has a lot more skills than any PF we have right now. He is certainly an upgrade because we are weak offensively and defensively at the 4. But I don't think we should expect miracles from him--and I think some posters expectations are too high. I would probably be inclined to trade the #9 and Drew for Austin, but I don't think this is a no brainer for many of the reasons discussed. I would trust the brass’ judgement that Croshere is better route than Miles, Miller, Johnson or Moiso, assuming 1 or 2 are available, if they went in this direction though. As for Webber, he is only two years older, and mark my words, Croshere will never, ever, be the player Webber is. I don't care if Webber is 58, he will be better than a 55 or 56 year old Croshere (you can extrapolate that I believe Webber will be effective in the league longer than Croshere will, despite the age difference). But right we don't make decisions because Webber might come here (unless we have assurance from him in 2001 that he will....--no I won't go there). My personal feeling-- having zero inside knowledge-- is Webber coming here is a real possibility. Because I think the Kings will disappoint next year (he will be frustrated there), we have a great young nucleus in which Webber might very well be the final piece, we will be far the best team under the cap next year (granted Davo's page suggests we would have some probably doable work to do to create a sufficient slot for Webber) and I could see Houston being of reasonable interest to him as a city (certainly more so than Sac). ------------------ "The Rockets were ahead of the Suns by 20 late in game 2 of the series, but when the going got tough, we just Pippened . We would not be done in the series though." [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited June 14, 2000).]
I like Austin, but I agree he may be more of a SF. I think the new trend of the NBA is away from the center position. Besides Shaq what other young center is out there? Zo is getting older, Duncan is still more of a PF. That is why I am concerend about the PF position. Austin could be a nice change of pace to normally play at SF, then move over to PF with our quick lineup at times. I think he can play against most PFs because he hustles, but I think ove rhte course of the season I'm not sure if he will be able to constantly take the banging. But if we could get him for the #9 I say grab him! ------------------
MManal- first of all, the exception coupon doesn't have to all be used in one $4.5 mil shot. It can be used piece by piece. For instance, we could sign Croshere for $3.85 mil Nolen, I realize this, but do you seriously think Dan Fagan is going to leave 1.5 mil on the table? If the ability to pay Austin is there, he is going to force it otherwise he'll tell the Rockets to get lost. You saw last summer exactly how he strong armed the Jazz with Anderson. He told them if they didnt pay the amount he was asking, he's gone. They did not pay, Anderson left. Had the Rockets had the ability to pay Anderson more than the 2.2 mil exception, he would have demanded it, but they were capped out. There is no doubt in my mind that Fagan will demand the whole chunk, if he did not, he would not be doing his job. Signing Austin to a long term contract starting at 5.5 mil will severely hamper any of cap flexibility this team has in the future. If Croshere were willing to sign for the middle class exception like Shandon did, and the Rockets got to keep the 9th pick that would be a totally different story. However, trading the 9th along with committing 5.5 mil is a major commitment to a role player. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
We also need to look at the flip side of Fagan. He could say "You guys (the Rockets) are already getting away cheap on one of my clients, break the bank for this one or you're not getting him." Remember, when Shandon took less to sign here, so did Fagan. 5-6 million seems like a lot to pay a role player... davo's page says about 4 million under the cap....we'll need more for Webber. ------------------ Rockets fans wanted at hoopsboards.com Draft Chat, NBA Chat, Team Chat, and more!
I don't know much about the salary cap but I figure if the Rockets can work out a trade for Croshere or somehow get under the cap to sign him then why couldn't they do it again in a few years. The future of the NBA is sign and trades not flat out signings. Remember its not who has the best package to offer but who does the player want to go to. ------------------
MManal, Nike- indeed, Fagan probably will demand as much as he can. After all, that's his job- he was an agent. I agree that $5.5 mil would be a lot (too much) to commit to a role player, regardless how good. I don't, however, see why the figure 5.5 has to be accepted as fact- is the Rockets management truly that awful at negotiating contracts? How hard could it be to say "hey, fine, look around and see what other teams are willing to give up. What? The middle class exception? We thought so."
Nolen, if all Croshere can make on the open market is the middle class exception then why dont we just sign him for that? That would be ideal. Problem is, he will command a lot more than that on the open market, even the Pacers themselves would pay more than that and figure something else out down the line. The only way I would want to get Croshere on this team is if he can be had for the middle class exception or maybe if the Rockets can clear a little more than that (highly unlikely). Giving up the 9th pick along with a big chunk of cap space is just too much for a role player. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
My biggest concern with this deal is that the Rockets will be locked in mediocrity and have no way out. I doubt Sacramento would agree to sign and trade Chris Webber within the conference. If the Rockets are going to acquire Webber, its going to have to be with carefully saved cap room. The price tag for Croshere is not going to be cheap. Dan Fagan is going to demand every penny possible that the Rockets can give him. That means 4.5 mil exception and 1 mil added in with Drew, thats a multi yr contract starting at 5.5 mil. Thats basically the same amount Cato starts with. That is a substantial financial committment when the 9th pick makes a rookie scale contract for a fraction of that amount. Also, I feel the Rockets need something resembling a go-to type option in the frontcourt for the 4th qtr of playoff games. Francis needs a frontcourt mate to help him carry this team. Croshere has been able to produce well against the Lakers b/c he is facing people like Horry and Green. Imagine him trying to score isolated against the Garnetts, Duncans and Wallaces. Thus, I dont feel that Croshere can be the go-to type option this teams needs in the frontcourt late in games. I could be totally wrong on this but these are my concerns. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
That kind of thought reminds me of an old saying: A bird in the hand(Croshere) is worth 2 in the bush(Webber or Duncan). If we need cap room then the Rockets will find a way. Rudy always does . I trust Rudy's judgements about a player more than some so-called experts. Besides, wasn't it Fagan who got Shandon to sign for less here because of playing time and other factors. You assume that Croshere will only want the almighty dollar when in fact he may be looking at the big picture. ------------------ Houston Rockets Forever!! In Rudy We Trust [This message has been edited by Dennis2112 (edited June 14, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Dennis2112 (edited June 14, 2000).]
