No, because you are stuck with the same damn problem as before (No PG). Francis is better than Brand and O'Neal, it makes no sense to deal him for players of less talent. Alvin Williams is actually very comparable to Mobley. I'd rather have 2 all-stars and 1 good player (which you guys have now, btw) than 1 all-star, 1 very good player, and 1 good player.
I agree, but ppl made this into a who's better and there were some fans who tried to rationalize (I doubt with a straight face, though) Mobley actually being a better player. What I do disagree with, though, is that Francis if he could net a top 6-12 player in the NBA couldn't get an MVP candidate. There's a big reason ppl b**** about the guy so much (myself include @ times); it's b/c we KNOW he can/should play @ an NBA-type player level -- joining the elite players in the league. Francis was talked about as an MVP-candidate early in this past season, remember, when Yao really struggled? But as Yao got more acquainted with the league, Francis had to dial it down a notch (or two) to bring #11 along more (as he should've). But he struggled with the "get others involved," "don't take this amount of shots," etc. talk (some unwarranted and some warranted) and his numbers talied off. With that said, if Francis under Van Gundy plays like most of us want him to -- and like he's fully capable of -- he is an MVP-type player. I think you'd find MVP-type players in that six-12 group you speak of: Kobe Duncan T-Mac Kidd KG Shaq AI Dirk Pierce C-Webb J O'Neal Payton Francis Marbury Marion Now this is no particular ranking, just to give an idea that if you come up with a top 12-15 list most of them would have these players there, including those in the top five, an order or two (or three, four) would be switched.
For some reason i really hat Perice. Its just the way he looks and plays. I would put Francis above AI and Peirce.
Well then say that instead of citing a one-game box score result and use that as the basis for your argument. Anyone can have a monster game every once in a while.
I firmly believe if you ask anyone outside of Houston who is the better player with most upside between Francis and O'Neal, you'll hear a resounding O-N-E-A-L. Brand? That could go either way since a player's stock usually goes down when they play for the clips, no matter what their numbers are. Truth be told, put Brand in a bigger market than the Clips with more hoopla and hype and he'll be a more popular player than Francis.
um, how would you know that... If you wanna ask fans...well i gues your wrong becasue Francis was ahead of him in All-Stae votes. And fans vote for All-Star.
Francis will NEVER be a serious MVP candidate until he gets this team into the playoffs, much less past the first round at least. That's why KG and T-Mac have all the right numbers but can't seem to get the League MVP. To think Francis was seriously considered as a pre-season or beginning of the season MVP candidate is ludicris. Also, your list is severely flawed. What's Payton doing on a list of MVP quality players? Marion? With the exception of Cwebb, everyone you listed under Dirk does not remotely belong on an MVP list. Looks like you ran out of names or didn't know who to put down.
Well next year he will be, because they better make it to the playoffs, or itll be 5 DAMN YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's why I said put Brand on a more popular team then see who wins the popularity contest. As far as being a better player, I guess since you didn't have a rebuttal, you admit than J'Oneal is a superior talent, has more upside than the "FRANCHISE," and that more GM's would rather have O'Neal.
Jermaine Oneal is not as talented as Steve Francis.. Their totaly two types of players. One is a explosive wing player, and he other is a pf post up guy.
I don't live in Houston. Steve Francis has much more talent than Jermaine O'Neal....he also has more potential than him. You guys really don't appreciate Francis enough to realize the ridiculous amount of talent this guy has.
Let's try to put some numbers in this equation and see if that statement is true. Let's say Cat's value is 100, Francis is 150 ( or whatever number, does not matter for this argument), Cat + Francis = 250. We trade Francis for Brand. What do u think Brand's value is, compared to Francis? 1. < Francis, let's say 140, Cat + Brand = 240 2. = Francis , 150 , Cat + Brand = 250 3. > Francis, let's say 160, Cat + Brand = 260 We trade Cat for Crawford. If Crawford's value is: 1. < Cat, let's say 90, Francis + Crawford = 240 2. = Cat, 100, Francis + Crawford = 250 3. > Cat, let's say 110, Francis + Crawford = 260 Do u see what I am getting at? The only way for "Mobley and Brand is better than Francis and Crawford." is if Brand's value is higher than Francis's and/ or Crawford's is less than Cat's. This "perceived" value we get for trading Francis or Cat has nothing to do with them but it has to do with whom we get back. If we think we can trade Francis for someone with higher value than him, we come out ahead. Same is true for Cat. By saying "Mobley and Brand is better than Francis and Crawford." only means Francis fetches more in the market than he is worth while Mobley fetches less. If that is true then the Clipper would be stupid to trade Brand for something less in return and the Rockets would be equally mad for trading Cat and get less than return. Is that what Cat's lovers really want to prove?
Mobley has been in the league longer, Francis has had several 30 point more than ten assists game. The Lakers game may have been an ultimate but it wasn't a fluke. Mobley may score 40 points in a game, but beyond scoring he will never give you anything else. That's my point.
IMO Oneal is at least equal in market value to Francis, maybe a tad higher. Francis is close enough in value however that the trade with them as principals would be fairly equitable. Francis is a tad higher in market value than Brand or say Gasol. Oneal pretty much has the rebounding and defense of Brand and the offensive scoring ability of Gasol all rolled into one. Brand or Oneal would be a much better compliment to Yao and the Rockets team than Gasol because of their defense at the 4 spot. I would be thrilled if we had swap with Francis and Oneal. Something like Francis for Oneal (maybe include EG, Tinsley, other players) IMO would make both teams more potent. I could see the Pacers doing this if they were at risk for Oneal leaving, besides the Pacers having Miller and Harrington to take over the 4/5--not shabby at all, where they no longer have a PG or wing player that is very offensively potent which Francis would provide. For us, we would get a young outstanding 4 to play with the other dominant 4s in the West. I just think the mix would be better for both teams. Similarly somthing like Brand and Dre for Francis and Griffin would be reasonably equal in value but I think would help both teams. Just because you trade equal value (most trades are) doesn't mean you don't improve your basketball team because the whole idea is adding players who better compliment the other players you have on our team. Right now we have a gaping whole at the 4 spot which in the west is a recipe for playoff disasters.
Oneal more marketable than Francis... Francis was on the allstar 2 years in a row, he is with Rebock, and to many he is like a slam dunk wizard. Francis is defenatly more popular than Oneal.
I wasn't talking "marketable" from the PR/commerical stand point, I was talking market value for trades. That is determined by their current skill, relative youth, work ethic, athletic potential and maybe a little bit of PR/marketability depending on the situation. Both are top 15 players/talents but I would say if most GMs had the choice they would take Oneal over Francis. They are close in market value I'll give you that and some teams very well might take Franics--but I'd say most would take Oneal. Oneal (even if we pay a little more) and Brand (if the Clips add in a little something extra) would be two of the main targets IMO if we accepted trade offers for Francis. I think if such a trade occured the Rockets would be better as would either the Pacers or Clips because all those guys bring something each team needs desperately.
rF, It is my contention that because Francis was made the number 1 option and put up numbers other people enjoy throwing out there (like 20-6-6) his market value could very well be above his actual value to the team. Because Mobley was eventually relegated to third option and his scoring average dropped below 20 ppg, his market value is actually lower than the actual value he provides to the team. I wouldn't trade Mobley for any of the players commonly thrown around in trade rumors for him, usually Alvin Williams, Eric Snow, or Jamal Crawford. Francis, on the other hand, I would trade straight up for Jermaine O'Neal or Elton Brand. If the Pacers or the Clippers would agree to that trade, make it ASAP. I would certainly be willing to trade Mobley for O'Neal or Brand, but that isn't going to happen. Francis and Griffin for O'Neal and Tinsley/Bender is a reasonable offer though.
Very good points. Francis and Oneal are both top 15 players who have the potential to get in the top five. But, for the mere fact that O'Neal is a C/PF (depending on the conference he plays in) he would probably be more wanted than Stevie. As u said, some teams would take Francis depending on need, but most would probably take Jermaine. As far as the the PR/commercial marketability of both players, I would say Francis is probably more known there. If you ask the casual/or non-basketball fan if they know who Steve Francis or Jermaine O'Neal is, most would probably say Francis. I know he's real popular in the urban market (i.e. Iverson, T-Mac, Kobe, Pierce, etc.) His retro jersey sold like crazy here in L.A.
