with all due respect DVauthrin...you are not considering trade value that the thread starting assumed. This is not Francis vs Mobley, this is trading one of them and whose replacement would be better. If you had to trade one of them, a Francis trade would make this a better team than a Mobley trade, or the other way around...that is the question. Why is this debate foolish. If I could pull a Francis for Brand, Kidd, Detroit't #2 or O'Neal, you are not going to make a better team than me by trading a $4m Mobley. No way.
1. Francis is better than Brand. 2. Who would you put at point if you didn't have Francis? 3. Kidd is not leaving. 4. Darko Milicic would set this team back 4 years, and once again, who plays point? 5. Francis is better than O'Neal, and, once again, who would you put at point? 6. What does salary have to do with it? It's all about talent. It's not like the Rockets don't have salary they could throw in.
I have seen a lot of posts saying Steve shoots at a lower percentage because he has to create his own shots. Well why did Cat shoot at an even higher percentage in 2001-2002 where he had no help. They were starting Norris, Mobley, Torres, Griffin, and Cato. Is Cat really why that team had a winning percentage of .300? You bet he is, if it weren't for him they might not have won a game. Oh and when Cat was out, they in fact didn't when a game, even when Steve played. As for me saying a higher 2pt% = better shooting guard, that is not the case. I said since Mobley is a better shooter and a better defender by far than Steve that he is a better 2 guard than Steve. Him shooting a better percentage than Bryant while Bryant has Shaq just goes to show how underrated he is. Is Steve a better all-around player than Cat? Probably. Is he a better PG? Undoubtedly. Is he a better shooting guard? I don't think so, at best they are about the same. Is Crawford/Francis better than Mobley and Brand or whoever else you could get for Francis? Not in a million years.
No, because Crawford is not as good as Mobley. Try putting someone in there with talent like Mobley, and then comparing. Also, Mobley playing point guard would be laughable.
he still didnt create his own shot. He wasnt pg. Moochie created his shot No more arguments about 2pt%.K With your reasoning you put Mobes ahead of Kobe.
I personally disagree about trade value as well. Francis has much more, no doubt, but Mobley would get us the player we need and more, while we wouldn't get a fair offer for Steve. Steve would bring offers of us packaging him for a better superstar or another team wanting to trade a lesser player and young players/picks for him. You won't get a Kidd or another elite pg for him straight up. I would consider an O neal trade if indy figures he is going to SA, but why would Jermaine agree to us over a spur team that will be intact plus adding him. Brand is a good player, but you expect Sterling to add steve's max deal? I don't. It would take a trade like NJ/PHX pulled off to realistically get me to move Steve, and that scenario is pretty unlikely if you ask me. IMHO, the best way we would get better by trading Steve is if we got a potential superstar/superstar on a rookie contract, and we had Spur type dollars to add another stud in fa. And that is a whole lot more of a risky proposition than trading mobley for a lesser valued solid pg and extras. We arent in a position to set our rebuilding back 2 or 3 years by trading Steve for the chance to draft Milicic, especially not with the fan support declining as it has in the past. Plus, I believe in a star big man/guard theory over two stars at the same area of the court. Just look at the new look payton bucks, and you can see what I mean. To all the others calling them about equal, In terms of upside, in Steve's migraine filled year he averaged one tenth of a point less than mobley, had more rebounds, and had a career low shooting year, while mobley had his best year as a pro that season with a 39 percent 3 point shooting percentage. Thus Steve at his worst is about as good as Mobley as his peak. This epitomizes why Steve is a superstar and Cat is a really good role player.
Crawford is exactly the player I always see mentioned in trade proposals involving Mobley. That is why I listed him. Others are people of about the same value as Crawford like Derek Anderson, the point remains the same. Moochie didn't create shots for Cat. Cat was the initiator of the offense when he was scoring for that team. Moochie is a third string quality point guard. re: 2pt% and Kobe, yes Cat is on par in shooting with Kobe. Kobe is a better passer, rebounder, at least as good a defender, is bigger, gets more calls, plays with Shaq, etc. All of these contribute to him being a better player than Mobley. Steve has 2 of these qualities, passing and rebounding, which have little to do with being a shooting guard. That is why Cat is not as good a shooting guard as Kobe, but is as good a shooting guard as Francis. Just because you have no answer for something, does not mean it is not relevent to the discussion. Shooting 7 points lower from the FT line and 8 points lower from beyond the arc is having just as good a year? All he did was shoot enough times to cover the difference. As I have said from the beginning, there are things Steve is better at. Those are passing, rebounding. There are things Cat is better at. Those are shooting, defense. If you think passing and rebounding are more important to your shooting guard than rebounding and defense, well that is up to you to decide. There is really no argument to be made that Steve is a better shooter though. There is certainly no argument to be made that he is a better defender. Those are the things I want out of my shooting guard. Since trading either one means the one who stays is our shooting guard, I would prefer to trade the one that gets more in return and leaves us with the shooting guard who is a better shooter and a better defender.
Two things. My point was Francis had an almost identical point per game number as Mobley and Steve had his worst year as a pro while Mobley had his career year. I didn't say Steve had a better year, I said it would lead one to see that Steve at his worst is almost as good as mobley at his peak, which is fair, and explains why Steve is a superstar and Mobley is a good role player. Secondly, stop saying Cuttino Mobley is a better shooter than Steve Francis, at best the difference between the 2 is negligible. In the past 3 years, mobley and steve outshot each other once, and were about equal in the other. The reason the gap was wider in mobley's best year was Steve spent most of all our games fighting migraines. Can you imagine shooting with all that pain? I concede the defense point, but this Cat is an appreciably better shooter than Steve is a myth. Finally, if I traded mobley it would be for a tall sg who can be a solid pg(barry) or a tall pg like Crawford plus extras.
As much as Moochie sucks hes our second string pg. He replaces Steve. Mobley never playes pg. Last year Moochie started alot of games(the ones Francis didnt play). Last year was Moochies Career year becasue he started. SO Mobley didnt really didnt create is own shot. Moochie was the pg.
Exactly... Also Steve takes the tougher shots. Even tough Mobley now is a better defender, its all a husling issue. All the new coach has to do is wip Steve. Steve also has the chance to be the better defender becasue of his speed.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I do believe we have a brand new contender for a spot on the Top 5 Stupidest Clutch BBS Posts of ALL TIME!!!
If you are only considering ppg, that was actually a career high for Francis. So Francis at his peak is almost as good as a scorer as Mobley at his peak. If you take shooting percentages into consideration, then that was the worst year for Francis, but also far worse than not only at his peak, but also at his worst. Either way, it doesn't really show anything about Francis in comparison to Mobley. Actually the difference is not negligible. While their overall FG% are nearly identical (Francis has a very slight edge), in individual categories (2pt%, FT%) Cat has a substantial advantage. Only in 3pt% was the difference negligible. It is a fact that Cat made 2 full percentage points more on his 2pt FGs and 5 full percentage points more on his free throws. To me, this says that Cat is a better shooter. You can present your own reasons that you think Francis is a better shooter, but I doubt they are more solid than the fact that Cat mead a higher percentage of his 2 ptrs and his free throws.
First, Mobley acts as the point guard for a good portion of many games. When you see him bring the ball up from out of bounds after a made basket, cross the half court line, and then initiate a play either by making a move or passing, that is the duty of a point guard. Second, I never said Moochie was not our second string point guard. I said he had third string point guard talent. Bobby Jackson and Nick Van Exel are second string point guards, and Moochie is a lot closer to Tito Maddox, Damon Jones, or Mateen Cleeves than he is to those guys. Finally, regardless of what label he was given (starting PG, Afroman, whatever) Moochie Norris did not get the majority of shots for Cat. Cat got the majority of his shots for himself in 2001-2002.
When we get a new coach, we get a new system. We can't compare this to that. Everything we know is gone. Cuttino is good. Steve is good. A 'Rudy Team' is 100% different than the other. Cat and Wink are capable of being the best back court in the game for at least one season. Cat pulled us through many games. By himself. Many games. Steve is our backbone. Don't get cranky. Realize what we have. I for one, am happy to have Cat and Steve. Very happy. (we also have Yao Ming). (oh yeah....We also have Yao Ming). What is the problem, again?
Wow, The poll bars mean something. The diff between Francis's bar and Mobley's Bar is how much better Francis is than Mobley!!!!
Kind of weird how only 3 or 4 of the 140+ Francis supporters are on here though, right? They're the silent majority.
Last year, Steve averaged the most assists/rebounds/points/steals out of ANYONE on our team. Can you say the MVP of our Htown Rockets?
Well the reason is is that Francis fan are smart and know that posting here is a waste of time. Everyone knows whos better. Its just these Mobley over Francis fans are so thick headed.
The reason is that like you they don't have any answers to my points. They also did not understand the point of the poll. It isn't who is the better player. It is if one of them should be traded, who should it be. As heyp and others have pointed out, Mobley and Brand is better than Francis and Crawford. Also, popularity is kind of a weak argument, unless you really believe that Britney Spears is better than the Dave Matthews Band.
