"Cuttino is, like, better than Francis I think..DUH!!DOYEEE!!!"

Probably the same reason we don't mention that Mobley probably should've gotten one too, if the Francis tech was the standard for givin a technical.

Frankly, I thought it was crap, but that was me.

 

Didn't read all of thread, just wanted to write.

Mobley was money in the first half and his defense on Kobe in the first half was gorgeous, his mind slips sometimes, he's working on it, give the man a break.

"Where was moochie?" I hope thats not a complaint. I was actually glad he was not in there. That dry spell at the end of the second quarter? Yeah guess who just got in the game, fro boy. I love him sometimes but he has not been the same and his shot is not on lately. He had one easy pass to Willis in 2nd quarter and that was it. He's making quite a few mistakes lately, IMO it was very smart keeping Franis and Mobly running the show.

 

He'll show you against the Mavs... wahahahahhaha. He'll rip those flukes out of the show. GO STEVE GO CAT!!!! but umm if there is any disadvantage that Cat has it is his height at the position he's playing. 6'4 against guards that are the size of pillars

 

I do not think that I've read anything that summarizes my opinions about Mobley better than this paragraph.

To detract from that moment of clarity, let me point out a few other things (things that I'm not ascribing to CBFC's amazing tone). I want Mobley to succeed, desperately of course. I also love his spirit. However, there's something tweakey about his game. Steve makes mistakes, but he tends to at least look like he's playing in control. Just little things, like having your shoulders square and spine down the axial plane of your body do so much to increase your chances of hitting the shot. Mobley runs (and crispee has said this too, I know I'm not original, or would that be extra crispee...) full blast towards someone and then has to make shots bizarre by jumping straight backwards. That movement doesn't make any sense to me at all. I don't remember him doing this last year, perhaps its just garbage he picked up during the summer.

Is this true? TNT didn't play that angle at all... was that something that local coverage clarified for you guys??? Fratello was amazed that Mobley would make such a stupid play.

 

Both fellas have been doing good and have made a few mistakes. I think it's time to stop this taking sides $h!t! I'm pretty sure Steve and Cat never point the finger at the other. The points to be made are that Cat is clutch and Steve was a big reason we pulled out those close games in the start of the season. No two ways about it these guys are developing Clutch City II.

Let time be the judge.

 

<i>quote: It originally said 3 seconds, and should've remained at 3 seconds, but the officials inexplicably raised it to 14. It probably would've been reversed anyway, had Cuttino stopped to set up a new play, because it would not have been legal. It wasn't a mistake by Cuttino, because you can't expect him to anticipate and closely watch the officials every play for every possible bad call they might make.

Is this true? TNT didn't play that angle at all... was that something that local coverage clarified for you guys??? Fratello was amazed that Mobley would make such a stupid play.</i>

No, that isn't true. The rules were changed prior to the 2000 season. Here's the rule:

<b>Resetting the shot clock after a jump ball</b>
New Rule: If the offense retains possession after a jump ball, the clock is reset to 14 seconds or remains the same if there are more than 14 seconds on the clock. If the defense gains possession, the clock is reset to 24 seconds. (Old rule: If the offense retained possession, the clock was reset to 24 seconds.)
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/news/2000/11/08/nba_rules_table/


On the play in question, Francis drove and was tied up by Hunter. We won the tip and retained possesion, so the clock was correctly reset to 14 seconds. Mobley's ill timed shot was a mental mistake on his part.

 

so, we've been through this in another thread...aelliott.

The clock was showing 3 seconds on the jump ball....(I have witnesses just like everyone), besides the rule says we don't set back to 14 seconds until after we "retain" possession...*after the jump*. This is a new rule within 1 year....

Further, this is a stupid rule...The offense has never...ever..never...ever...never...ever...been awarded time for the defense tying them up.

ludicrous.

So, are you and Davo and anyone else honestly going to sit there and say that you saw 14 seconds on the clock, so likewise Mobley should have, when the rules state clearly that the clock is not going to reset until after Mobley grabs that jump...."retain possession."

Further, is everyone and Fratello going to honestly say they knew this rule would show 3 seconds before the tip and 14 after Mobley grabs the board. This rule has nothing to do with the history of basketball. I would have shot that ball, just like Mobley!!!

Did you all really know that 3 seconds prior to jump would move to 14 after Mobley grabbed the ball?????????

...uh...OK, then....you all ROCK!!

 

CP,

What's your point here? The rule says that after the jump, the clock will either be reset to 14 (if the offensive team wins the tip) or reset to 24 (if the defense wins the tip). That's why they don't reset the clock before the tip, because the correct time can't be determined until after the tip.

That's the rules. Are you saying that it's ok for Mobley to be unaware of the rule? That's ridiculous. When rule changes are made, the leage sends refs to each teams training camp to go over the new rules. We played under that rule all of last season. Mobley should be well aware of that rule. Personally, I doubt that Mobley didn't know about the rule for jump balls. A more likely explanation is that he made a mistake in the heat of the game.

If you're asking if I expect a professional that is making millions per year to
be aware of the rules of the game, then the answer is yes. He's suppose to know the rules. Mobley made a mental mistake, nothing more, nothing less. Everybody makes them, it's no big deal.

Lastly, what I was actually replying to was the statement that the refs made a mistake. They didn't. It wasn't inexplicable (as previously stated) and it wouldn't have been reversed, it was the correct interpretation of the rules.

 

You are right.

All I wanted was for you to say that that clock MUST show 3 seconds before the jump and 14 only AFTER Mobley grabs it.

You made my point.

It was a stupid rule...and there is no Fratello or ANY cc.net fun, including me or you, that kew that Mobley gained 14 seconds by grabbing the ball.

If anything.,....admit in this THREAD that you had NO IDEA that a shot clock would show 3 seconds and then adjust to 14 upon who got possession on a tip.

The rule is weird...Mobley won't forget it...neither will I...but, no one including Fratello knew the REAL ruling.

 

I knew this because I took the time to read about the rule changes. I would really, really hope that someone who actually makes a living off of playing basketball would bother to see what the new "work rules" are. Other professionals are expected to do so, after all.

Doesn't involve being special, just a frickin' short read.

 

<i>All I wanted was for you to say that that clock MUST show 3 seconds before the jump and 14 only AFTER Mobley grabs it.

You made my point. </i>

Actually, I don't know what the clock is set to immediately before the jump. If I had to guess, I'd say that it's set to 14. Think about it, the shot clock is only in effect when one team has possesion. On a jump, neither team has possession (that's why the shot clock isn't running during the opening tip). The most efficient thing to do would be to set the clock to 14 before the jump. Then if the offense gets possesion, you just start the clock, and if the defense gets possession, then you just reset the clock. Keeping 3 seconds on the clock serves no purpose. No matter what happens, the clock won't be reset to 3 seconds.

As far as who knew about the rule, what does it matter if fans or broadcasters knew? Players are paid to play basketball, they are briefed on the rules every year. I don't think it's unrealitic to expect them to know the rules better than fans or broadcasters.

Again, I really don't think it was a matter of Mobley not knowing about the rule change. The old rule would have put 24 seconds back on the clock, so he would have thought that he had even more time. He just screwed up in the heat of the game.

 

Careful aelliott! If crispee is backed into a corner and is forced to admit that Cuttino made a mistake, he's liable to get violent and make 'shocking' nut sac trades. LOL.

I think I'm developing a crispee crush on Willis, the other underdog. The guy boards like mad, is perhaps the best center we've had since 1998 (save one stretch last year), but damn his flippers spook me.

 

That doesn't make sense to me. Then the ruling would not read "retain."

davo pulled this ruling out in another thread, not your SI interpretation. The ruling says upon "retaining possession." Point is, if the jump ball is a scramble, the clock can go off before retaining. If you'd simply set it to 14 to begin with, there is no need to say "retain." Plus, I have definitely seen a clock go off before with like 1 seconds on it at tie-up.

btw achebe, I've been saying it is a mistake for not knowing the ruling. Can you not read? I said it was not a mistake at first, right after the game, because the fans around me all thought he should be shooting it, and I did too. Davo then pulled the ruling, and I've been calling it a mistake ever since. Maybe the TV guys called it a mistake for all your tv watchers without tickets , but I don't have that benefit, and no one explained the mistake except Davo...everyone else said they saw 14 seconds...which I still doubt. My point was fans saying they knew the rule and that it was comparable to not knowing the score or how many timeouts. The clock showed 3 seconds before the tip. Mobley didn't know the rule. That is a mistake. My point is: Lets not all pretend we knew the rule and/or saw 14 seconds before the tip, if that is not true.

aelliott...or anyone...do you know the history of the "old rule?" A reset used to never occur, no time awarded, in both NCAA and NBA. Plus, I'd be curious to see the International ruling.

 

Maybe Cat made a mistake by not knowing the rule, but isn't it Rudy's job to make sure that the players are aware of the situation? Rudy should have been yelling to let the players know that there would be 14 seconds on the shot clock if the Rockets got the tip.

In fact blame the whole coahing staff and the other players too. They should have been talking it up before the tip.

 

Sorry crispee... we expected too much out of you. Since you can calculate the mean pairwise difference of net salary increases for larks traded from Istanbul to New York after June 30th, we all assumed that you had to have known this odd rule as well.

Personally, I don't care about that specific mistake. I was in too much awe of the sheer badarsedness of the team to think one way or the other of a seemingly trivial mistake... a mistake that the team had oodles of opportunities to make up for (including a couple of handmes from the refs).

Actually... that's not true. If Kevin, the sea lion, could have caught the ball in the last 10 seconds...... or if Kelly didn't close her eyes whenever Shaq was close by...

 

<i>davo pulled this ruling out in another thread, not your SI interpretation. The ruling says upon "retaining possession." Point is, if the jump ball is a scramble, the clock can go off before retaining. If you'd simply set it to 14 to begin with, there is no need to say "retain." Plus, I have definitely seen a clock go off before with like 1 seconds on it at tie-up. </i>

CP,

I'm not understanding your confusion here. By retaining, they mean that the team that had possesion prior to the jump ball, gains possession (in this case the Rockets) off the tip. Since the clock gets set to a different value based on who gets possession, they have to identify those conditions. It gets set to 14 if a team "retains possession" (i.e. the team that had the ball before the jump, wins possession of the tip). The term "retaining possession" is just the term they are using to mean "the team that had possession prior to the tip is the first team to regain possession following the tip". They can't just say "if the offensive team gets possession", because by definition any team that possesses the ball is the offensive team, so that would be ambiguous. In order to specify the team that had possession prior to the jump, they have to qualify it with "retaining possession"

The shot clock wouldn't go off during a scrample for a tip, because the shot clock wouldn't start until one of the two teams gained possession. Am I misunderstanding what you are saying? Are you saying that the clock would start running before a team gains possession?

I don't know how long the prior (full 24 second reset) was in effect, but that's how I've always seen it done. Prior to 2000, if there was a jump, you got a full 24 regardless of which team came up with the ball. The only time I can think of where you would have only 1 second, would be the case where there was only 1 second left in the half.

 

achebe,

"Kevin the sea lion" that's pretty funny!

aelliott,

You seem to be making a logical argument as the basis of refuting my logical arugment....and calling it my confusion for not following your logical argument... Am I confused about that?

Yes, my argument is that the clock starts the moment it touches someone's hands, just like an inbounds. Why would the shot clock wait for possession? That only makes sense if one agrees with your logical point that the reset happens immediately...before we even know the offensive team. Why would they arbitrarily reset to 14 before determining possession? even you say, "they have to identify those conditions" of possession, so that's why the wording is the way it is. So, if they don't know possession yet, and thus use that "retain possession" wording in the ruling to determine how to set the clock, why would they reset to 14 before the tip...simply to start the countdown in the event that offense retains possession.

Do you see how that sounds like your confusion to me? Be fair, if you are going to say "I'm not understanding your confusion here," try to understand how someone can see your confusion for saying the reset occurs before an offensive team is determined....

So, we are in disagreement when the reset happens. I am saying the defense still has an opportunity to turn the tie-up into a shot clock violation if there is a scramble...cause I've seen it. Disagreement is not "confusion."

I also would not be surprised to find out that the clock starts the moment it is tipped. Thus, the reason that I've seen the shot clock run out on a jump ball. Therefore, my logical point is that the word "retain possession" is needed because possession has not been achieved, so there is no reset, yet.

Here's the solution for you. Next time we see a jump ball when the shot clock is under 14 seconds, let's look at the clock. If it is reset to 14 before the tip, then my assumption (logical point) was wrong. Very simple....no need to make your own assumption to prove someone wrong.

 

<i>Yes, my argument is that the clock starts the moment it touches someone's hands, just like an inbounds. Why would the shot clock wait for possession? That only makes sense if one agrees with your logical point that the reset happens immediately...before we even know the offensive team. Why would they arbitrarily reset to 14 before determining possession? even you say, "they have to identify those conditions" of possession, so that's why the wording is the way it is. So, if they don't know possession yet, and thus use that "retain possession" wording in the ruling to determine how to set the clock, why would they reset to 14 before the tip...simply to start the countdown in the event that offense retains possession.</i>

Why would you start the shot clock if possession hadn't yet been established? Neither team has possession at that point, so why start the shot clock? You can't have a shot clock violation if neither team has possession. The shot clock doesn't come into play until possession has been established. It's different than an inbounds play because on an inbounds play, possession has already been established. Seems like you're viewing it as a continuation of the possession prior to the jump. If that were the case, then they wouldn't reset the clock to 14 when the team retained possession.

Resetting it to 14 before a jump isn't arbitrary, it's being efficient. After the jump, there's two possible outcomes as far as the shot clock is concerned, 14 or 24 seconds. If you reset it to 14 prior to the jump, then all the timekeeper has to do is to either start the clock running ( if possession is retained) or hit the reset (if possession isn't retained). That's pretty simple, it's a single press of a button, no matter the outcome of the jump. If you reset the clock to 24, then the timekeeper would have to either have to start the clock (a single button press) or reset the clock to 14 (not a single button press). Problem is that there isn't a button for the timekeeper to reset the clock to 14 (as there is with 24). So, the logical thing to do is set the clock to 14 and only require the timekeeper to press a single button after the jump.

In a case like the one in the Laker game, what do you think the clock should show prior to the jump? Leaving 3 on the clock doesn't serve any purpose since under no circumstance will the clock be reset to 3 and you wouldn't be able to press a single button after the jump.ou're viewing it as a continuation of the possession prior to the jump. If that were the case, then they wouldn't reset the clock to 14 when the team retained possession.

 

Again, aelliott, I believe the clock is not reset to 14 *before* the tip. Further, I believe the shot clocks always runs when the game clock is running. You are just not buying those key point of my logic. You are not following my logic, and calling it confusing, because you believe the clock is reset before the tip, and does not start-up right away afterwards. I'm saying it doesn't reset until possession is regained, but restarts when the game clock restarts (on tip, or maybe on first touch after the tip). That is why the 3 seconds can expire. Where is this ruling of yours that says that there is one case where the shot clock does not run when the game clock is running? Where does it say anywhere that the clock doesn't start until the offense gains possession?That appears to be an assumption of yours--one with which I do not agree.

I can't explain it any more succinctly than this: I believe the defense is still given the opportunity to get a shot-clock violation, up until the point the offense "regains possession." The shot clocks restarts with the game clock after a jump ball and is reset upon regaining possession. I could be wrong, but what I am saying is not that hard to understand.

<b>NBA.COM says nothing about jump balls causing reset prior to Rules Change</b>

nba.com disagrees with your link about the history of this ruling. It says in this 1999 write-up about the shot clock that there are 7 things that can cause a reset; a jump ball is not one of them.

<a href="http://global.nba.com/Basics/00422949.html">History of the Shot Clock</a>

Also, there are other sites that explain that the purpose of all the new rules was to cause more scoring, and one set of changes was to give the offense more possessions, more time, not less. Your suggestion is that it was less time--14 sec reset going down from 24. Your link is highly questionable when it says the the Old Rule was a 24-sec reset, in light of that history link.

In the <a href="http://global.nba.com/history/rules.html">History of NBA Rules</a>, there was a rule change in 1977 that made all violations a reset to 24. As you look through all the rules, more and more things caused resets. No where does it ever say that a "jump ball" causes a reset...yet, there a many rule changes regarding resets. Further, the only shot clock ruling ever taking away time was that an offensive technical foul used to be a reset. They stopped that one.

imso, there was never a reset on jump ball before the recent rules change. College never had that when they had jump balls and International does not have that rule. Plus, I still do not believe the reset occurs on jump ball. My guess, until I see otherwise, is that the reset occurs when and if the offense regains possession after a jump ball...hence, the wording of the rule.

 

sorry to keep this bad thread title propped up...fromobile sucks DUH!! DOYEEE!!! j/k frommie

But I found the old ruling on the jump ball that Mobley shot. There was no Shot Clock Reset prior to the 2000-2001 Rules Changes.

Here are the old rules at nba.com.

<a href="http://global.nba.com/basics/rules/index.html">The Official NBA Rules</a>

IV: Resetting 24-Second Clock
<ol TYPE="A"><li>The 24-second clock shall be reset when a special situation occurs which warrants such action.
<li>The 24-second clock shall remain the same as when play was stopped, or reset to 10 seconds, whichever is greater, on all technical fouls or delay of game warnings called on the defensive team. EXCEPTION: Fighting foul
<li>The 24-second clock is never reset on technical fouls called on the offensive team. EXCEPTION: Fighting foul
<li>The 24-second clock shall be reset to 24 seconds anytime the following occurs: (1) Change of possession (2) Illegal defense violation (3) Personal foul (4) Fighting foul (5) Kicking the ball or blocking the ball with any part of the leg (6) Punching the ball with a fist (7) Ball contacting the basket ring of the team which is in possession </ol>