Tough question. It may be a wash, but if given a choice, I would go with Steve at pg. But, as a player, I go with Steve, hands down. Though, I know that isn't your question. Do you really think we're above-average in speed at every position ? Definitely at pg and pf, but the other 3 positions, I'm not so sure. BTW, take your shots at me now, once I hit 1000 posts, I am officially untouchable. ------------------ "We don't have any plans. We just plan to win." Mack Brown
WRONG. KT can rebound. Hakeem can rebound. Cato can even rebound a little. Rogers can rebound. Mo has not proven to be a good rebounder yet, but Francis jumping out of the gym to grab all of the rebounds isn't helping him prove himself (Mo has picked up his rebounding lately with increased PT and did grab 14 against Utah). The reason Francis stays back for rebounds is not because our big men are weak rebounders, it's because he wants to. That's cool, he wants to help the team by doing all he can, but if he released for an outlet pass more often, it might improve our transition game. This would mean our big men getting more boards. "I don't speak Canadian." -Steve Francis ------------------ "I have to say I don't understand why the Rockets' fans are booing Scottie." -Calvin Murphy Drunk posters unite.
Francis has a few problems that i agree w/ some above posters 1.) transition 2.) needs to penetrate more/ better / more variety other than baseline 3.) he shouldnt be rebounding so much 4.) he needs the ball a little more in crunch time... not all as mobley needs it too... and he needs to score more period. but in my opinion he's doing a better job running the team. look at the boxscore for the jazz game and lots of other games. i've never seen the rockets so balance in their scoring attack. compared to iverson/marbury who want to do everything themself, francis is running an the offense very adequetley. he still needs to assert himself more. ------------------ --TEX
For those interested in discussing transition, let's do it. But, you have to accept criticism of Francis to have that discussion. Here's what I read on the board: 1. It's the rebounders problem, 2. It's the fact Francis rebounds (tell that to Kidd and Magic) 3. It's a problem with poor outlet passes (ummm, outlets are designed as easy passes, we aren't talking about quarterback throws over the D here.) 4. I even read here in this thread that we aren't a fast team because Walt is slow. Let's discuss...because you should not have much trouble agreeing with the assumption of mine that focusing the offense on improving transition is the fastest way to improve our offense. The transition that Rudy promised us after getting Shandon, Cato and Francis is for visions of Cato, Kenny/Mo, CM, SA, SF on the court running like the wind. We are a very fast team. Quit protecting Francis and accept than he is not delivering as designed. The Play doesn't start enough is the problem First, did I ever say I love your moniker. It makes me laugh just reading it. "the play" being run incorrectly is about us not even running the play. We can break down the transition on tape and look at spacing problems, poor pass-or-keep decisions and lack of a secondary break design, but the main problem for the passed 1 1/2 yrs is we simply don't get the transition started enough. Remember the outlet is a requirement of good transition. Our boys are releasing, but not getting open, so "the play" never starts. The Outletters pass poorly My response to that is that aren't being given a target. The recipient of the outlet pass is the problem. They must get open and cut to the passer, if needed. It is like our only concept of transition is to release and get into the wing and run and look back over our shoulder for the pass. Francis should hardly ever be doing that. That is the role of Mobley and Shandon. Besides, bomb passes are not something you can achieve game in and game out. Kidd and Magic can get transition going without relying on defensive laspes that allow long passes. They dribble at and through the defense. Francis rebounding is a problem Huh? As good a rebounder Francis is, he may never outrebound Kidd and Magic Johnson, and they are leaps and bounds better than us at getting their team running. An outlet pass is not a requirement of the dribbler if the dribbler gets the rebound. The main reason we talk of outlet passes is the rebounder most often is not a dribbler, so they must immediately get it to the primary dribbler. If the rebounder is the primary dribbler, all the better. You don't need an outlet then. He just dribbles and the wing men get running. Francis rebounded only hurts his ability to be the wing man, not his ability to be the dribbling point man. Just run Stevie...push it if you are so good at dribbling and passing! What are to afraid Stevie. Push it like moochie does. the difficulty of team transition The main difficulty of transition in the NBA is that it is very hard to simulate in practice. You pretty much just design roles to get everyone to know what the others will be trying to do, but the actual execution of it can't really be practiced, because your 2nd teamers cannot simulate transition defense properly since the 1st teamers are so much faster. What good is Langhi trying to race with Shandon, or Walt trying to make Cuttino work for it...lol? This well known fact about teaching transition (this is something NBA coaches talk about, btw, and I've discuss with college coaches/scouts)...this fact is why I don't like to see Francis trying to run the wing. We need repetition in live action. And we need repetition with Francis in the middle. Everytime he runs away from the ball, instead of going to the outlet passer, I consider that a wasted opportunity for practicing a controlled fastbreak. Sure we can score that way, but it is more a random thing where players are swapping roles and thus must look for each other and make more decisions rather than make reflex actions. Don't Defend Francis. He is ultimately responsible for improving our transition Tacoma...I am not looking for a reason to whip Francis. I have been looking for transition for 1 1/2 years now. I don't have to look for anymore reasons. To me, the reason is Francis wants to be the wing runner and that leaves us with no point guard to push it. I honestly believe this is the #1 fault with our offense, and hardly anyone talks about it because we just want to bash individual players. Why the majority of this board think in terms of individual player critiques is beyond me. Yes, the transition is not entirely Francis fault, just like late game losses are not entirely Mobley's fault. It is amazing though how no one can take criticism that involves Francis. Plus, this is constructive criticism. Our transition game is easily the best way to improve this team, and our PG is not helping to improve it. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited January 07, 2001).]
HP, true the rockets have alot of athletes that SHOULD be able to run but the thruth is that there are only 2 players who CONSISTENLY make an effort to run the floor and they are Shandon Anderson and Carlos Rogers. Does Cuttino run the floor? hardly. Kenny?nope.MO? yea right. My point is, how can you run a fast break when nobody on your team is running with you. You have to have more players on your team on the offensive end than the other team for it to be a fast break. If Kenny and Mo hustled like Carlos they would have so many easy baskets. Problem is most of the time they trail the play after they rebound or we get the ball.Steve is open to criticism, but in this case, I can't blame our transistion game on him because I just dont see it. A couple of you have made some good points but I just dont see the things you see on the court. ------------------
Heypartner, Okay, assuming everything you're saying is correct, how do they change it? I would think that it's the coaches responsibility to make the necessary corrections. In the last 2 or 3 games Shandon has played some SF & been quite effective. What if we went with what the players are more comfortable with & moved Shandon to the SF position, Francis to the SG position, & Moochie to the starting PG position? I've said a couple of times before on other threads that, at this point, it seemed that Moochie ran the point better than Steve. Would that help or not? By the way, glad I could make you laugh. ------------------
tacomah, Come on...Mobley and Moochie consistently make the effort and Mo' and KT are geneerally always trailing. The PFs generally can only trail. The lead wing men are hardly ever PFs in most transition teams. We have all the makings for transition, except one thing, and that is one guy who will push it down the opps throat by dribbling at and through them. IMO, Francis is the only person on this team capable of doing. But, he won't do it enough. That leads me to answer Hottoddie's question: We cannot improve transition offense in practice. We must do it on the floor, in games. That is where the practice comes from. And the person who needs the most practice is the main dribbler. That is Francis. He seems almost afraid to learn. We cannot improve transition until Francis gets more reps. It is the same as the reps Cuttino needed driving to the rim last year. In practices, Cuttino cannot improve his above-the-rim drives into the lane and see the open man from midair. It is hard to simulate real defense of that. But Cuttino works on it over and over in the games, and last year was a perfect opportunity for us to practice that. We are better this year because Cuttino got a lot of practice in the injury-plagued season last year. Francis is not getting much practice at pushing the fastbreak. He needs to try it. He needs to take those rebounds and run it down the opps throat to improve his decision making. He needs to cut to the open passing lane and demand that outlet pass, then turn and run. He should STOP FREAKING RELEASING. Let Mobley and Shandon do that. Francis go get the damn ball and have no fear of 3 on 3s. He'll fail sometimes and dribble it away or get charges, so be it! But he'll never learn unless he tries. Practice and summer league play won't cut it. He needs to do it in game situations against real NBA defenes. He needs to attack 3 on 3s. I can say one more thing...I know this from local contacts. Rudy has definitely given him the green light to push the fast break any and everytime that he wants to. Moochie, too. And Moochie is trying it! [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited January 08, 2001).]
Looks like I found the HeyPartner post-padding thread. Looks like the topic has turned into another "why Francis needs to push the ball more threads", though. I'd like to steer things back to the original discussion, Steve as a PG vs. Cat as a SG. What I want out of any position is maturity. Especially from my guards. And right now both are lacking. But I can forgive the Steve's lack of on-court maturity more easily than Cuttino's because Steve is much younger (4 years I think). And with Cuttino as the "older brother" that Steve looks up to and defers to, Cat needs to be the 1st to mature. Here are ways he needs to improve: (1) Field Goal percentage. 43% is not Larry Hughes-esque, but it is far from upper-eschelon. The percentage needs to be 45+, and it would be there if Cuttino just quit taking those few dumb shots every game. You know, the ones you cringe at when he puts them up. Incidentally, his FG% has been 43% every year he's been in the league. You'd like to see improvement. (2) Assists. Down this year, from 2.6 to 2.0. I know his role is to shoot the ball, and score off the bench, and Cuttino does a damn fine job in that role. But I think he'd be even more effective if he produced points for others more often by driving to the basket and kicking it out (not to mention making his ISOs more effective by keeping the help defenders honest). Anyway, the title of this thread is "Cuttino creates for others..." right? (3) Defense. Cuttino isn't a terrible defender, but he certainly is far from a stopper. The truth is that he has the ability to be really good at it, even though he is a little undersized for a SG. He was a top-notch defender in college, but for some reason he tends to make mental mistakes at times, especially leaving his man to help when he should stay on him (or get back faster when the ball is rotated). He also (along with Steve) gets out of position at times for defensive transition, in their attempt to crash the offensive boards. Its fine if you get the rebound, but otherwise you've left yourself with a 2 on 1 (or even 3 on 1) the other way. ------------------ "Thirty-seven?" -Randall, Clerks www.clutchtown.com
hehe....Oh people pay me to take on the Mobley bashers as entertainment. And Jonathan Feigan tipped me off that he would release the quotes today, so I jumped on the opportunity to build the case for Mobley. I actually really hate Mobley, but a buck is a buck! Oh Sam,,,what's with the meaningless stats. The important one that the coaches care about is 60% success rate. Ask Jim Boylen. All you really have to say is he isn't making the most mature decisions. Make that argument, but I don't see it in your post. Pulling out the stats doesn't matter when there is a 60% stat on the table charted by Jim Boylen. And Boylen also says they consider him the best at creating for others. Boylen says his assist numbers would be "outrageous" if the NBA charted assists like hockey does. 60% success rate for the team when Mobley creates. wow! Take another look Sam! 40-65 in the last 4 games. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited January 08, 2001).]
I strongly disagree with anyone that thinks the Cat is better with the ball than Stevie, esp at the end of the game. Francis looks to involve EVERYONE while the Cat looks to isolate himself everytime. Sure he gets fouled alot and gets to the line, but Steve works on integrating everyone. How many times with Cat having the ball have we pulled one out? ------------------
Bad first post. Right or wrong, there are alot of Cat fans here, lol. Just kidding, I agree with you also. But, is Steve not man enough to say "give me the damn ball !!" Heck Keyshawn Johnson wrote a book about it. Of course, if you watch the replay, Steve was standing at the 3 point line looking at Mobes with his hands ready to receive the pass. ------------------ "We don't have any plans. We just plan to win." Mack Brown
Here's great quote from the Houston Cronicle by Jim Boylen: What people have to understand is he doesn't get the hockey assist (which can include two passes that lead to a goal)" Here's a quote from Raptors' general manager, Glen Grunwald: "You don't see a lot of players like that, that can create on their own and make passes to create for others" Here's a quote from Rudy: "He is one of the best players in the league. It's a fact. Ask the other teams. Ask what they have to do to stop him. They have to shift their whole defense." ------------------ Cuttino Mobley Online
sigh...such exaggeration and bias. geeze....then you disagree with Rudy, Jim Boylen, Lenny Wilkens, Grunwald, and several opposing coaches. Mobley creates a score for himself or his teammates at a 60% clip. And most all that is in the 4th Q. Francis is not even close to that, because it is extremely difficult to create opportunities for the team in the 4th, and Francis needs more reps. Actually, the whole team needs reps at running sophisticated plays at the end. Until we do, Mobley's plays are so much easier for the team to run, and so much more effective there is no mistaking why Rudy calls it all the time in the 4th. Like gr8-1 says, go ahead and take the reps Francis. We need some pressure taken off of Mobley. But do something with the ball next time, not like your fiasco in Denver that people gloss over. Francis, don't be afraid to demand the ball like Mobley, and you might just reach his 60% success some day.
heyp,, this is gettin' a little outta hand, it's bull****, you're straight "dissin'" Steve now, you ought to choose different words to express your feelings, don't take it out on Francis, remember, them two are best friends, peace.. ------------------ against all odds
Oh please Arnel. Like this compares to "Mobley Sucks", "Sit his ass down", "He's selfish", "Trade him". Don't be so sensitive to Francis criticism. Mobley takes an absolute beating on this board. Francis's Denver play was a fiasco; the worse last minute play of the year. We need more reps with Francis leading the end game. Mobley shows more success. What is dissing about that. Nothing man. cool off, or go hide your head in the sand if facts are unbearable to you. I'm not dissing Stevie...man, I'm not dissing him at all. I love him. There is nothing I do not like about him, but I do see his need for more practice running plays and more demanding the ball. And for godsakes, push the fastbreak, Stevie!! I simply think Mobley's plays are easier for the team to run than PG-led plays right now. Doesn't mean I love the ISO and hate motion, or love Mobley and dis Francis.
HP, Are you serious about Steve's last shot against Denver?!?! Did you already forget that Cuttino jacked up the most ridiculous fade away shot over 2 defenders that was an AIRBALL that had to be tipped out by Kenny just to let Steve have the chance to win. How quickly you forget.... and like this past game there was time on the clock(12 seconds) and we had a timeout. The reason Cat gets so much criticism on this board is because he brings it upon himself with his erratic play and decision making. You can critique the things Steve IS NOT doing out there on the court all you want, but the fact is most people want to criticize what cat IS DOING out there on the court. The things you want francis to do WILL help the rockets but the things cuttino does ARE HURTING the team. Sure Matt Bullard and Shandon missed their shots but they were good shots. Also, can I add the fact that Cuttino shot the ball when we had NO OFFENSIVE REBOUNDERS down there to rebound if he missed. I can admit it was a normal shot, he didnt change his form or anything, but it was a bad decision no matter how you look at it. ------------------ [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited January 08, 2001).]
Ok, then how many times with Francis having the ball have we pulled one out? Dont get me wrong I love Francis and I wouldnt trade anyone for him, but sometimes he needs to be selfish and just take over the game. If he was as cocky as Cuttino we wouldnt have this thread. And if you really want to say Steve is getting everyone else involved, 6 assists is not alot. It aint even top 15. And everyone knows that Cuttino gets to the basket better than anyone on the Rockets and most people in the NBA. ------------------ Rockets Season Ticket Holder
heyp, ha ha, once again, I know Mobes gets beatin' here, but if you look a few posts back I was critisizing everybody who said we "should trade him" and comments like that, 'cause I'm against that, and I just don't see why we are compaing the two (PG and SG)they're the future of this team, and right now, they probably sittin' together somewhere, sippin' on some "orange juice" and laughing at this post if they ever read it, and "keep your head in the sand" or whatever you said, whoa.. that was nice, thanx.. I'm kool though, don't worry.. ------------------ against all odds
Is the shot that Mobes set up for Moochie against Golden State counted towards that 60 % ? ------------------ "We don't have any plans. We just plan to win." Mack Brown
