Cubans top 30 players

King1 · Feb 9, 2009

Lol at Sebastian Telfair. That's the worst list I've ever seen.

Uprising · Feb 9, 2009

Shaud said:

I stopped taking it serious when Kidd was listed at 2.
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Ditto. Surprised he had Yao in the top 10.....being Cuban and all.

baller4life315 · Feb 9, 2009

Easy said:

No they don't get it. First, people still talk as if the list was about who is a better player, which is NOT.

Second, it is the numbers for the last 3, 5, and 8 games. You think Cuban would be so dumb to give the public access to his full-blown data?

I find a lot of people here have a tendency to immediate dismiss some statistical analysis without even taking the effort to understand what it is.

BTW, the thread title is extremely misleading.
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If you go back and reread this thread only a handful of people seem to be coming away with the "OMG are you saying Foye is a better player than Kobe?!" vibe. You aren't 'misreading' this data incorrectly by raising an eyebrow at Matt Bonner ahead of everybody on the Spurs.

What's funny is even for the last 3, 5 and 8 if you go by recent games. Of course, the dates aren't listed so its hard to know which time periods this data is based off of. Do I think Cuban would give the public access to his data? No, probably not but is this the formula that convinced him and Nelson to trade for Kidd or give Diop the full MLE?

F.D. Khan · Feb 9, 2009

This is just priming people so he can trade Kidd for Kobe!

Wachaki · Feb 9, 2009

LOL Kobe's 15 and Kidd's 2

Also... no Tim Duncan or Paul Pierce on this list?!?

krnxsnoopy · Feb 9, 2009

I stopped reading at KIDD #2 ROFLMAO!!!!

Kwame · Feb 9, 2009

King1 said:

Lol at Sebastian Telfair. That's the worst list I've ever seen.
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Is that a reference to me in your signature? Awesome! I'm honored!

roslolian · Feb 9, 2009

Easy said:

No they don't get it. First, people still talk as if the list was about who is a better player, which is NOT.

Second, it is the numbers for the last 3, 5, and 8 games. You think Cuban would be so dumb to give the public access to his full-blown data?

I find a lot of people here have a tendency to immediate dismiss some statistical analysis without even taking the effort to understand what it is.

BTW, the thread title is extremely misleading.
Click to expand...

Even if it is the last 3 5 and 8 games are you still saying that Bonner does more for his team than Manu, Parker and TD? Its not about who's a better player, Cuban is saying these are guys who make plays and are put in the position to make plays. If that's the case then why is Manu and TD not even there? It doesn't even matter how big or small your sample size is, except for the one game where they all sat majority of their plays go through TD, TP and MG. The formula they are using is flawed, and that's probably why they thought Kidd was all they needed to compete for a championship.

yaoluv · Feb 9, 2009

The timberwolves need to get on the phone with cuban PRONTO about swappring Telfair for Dirk.

Easy · Feb 9, 2009

roslolian said:

Even if it is the last 3 5 and 8 games are you still saying that Bonner does more for his team than Manu, Parker and TD? Its not about who's a better player, Cuban is saying these are guys who make plays and are put in the position to make plays. If that's the case then why is Manu and TD not even there? It doesn't even matter how big or small your sample size is, except for the one game where they all sat majority of their plays go through TD, TP and MG. The formula they are using is flawed, and that's probably why they thought Kidd was all they needed to compete for a championship.
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Trading for Kidd is one thing. Do you think Cuban would be so stupid to spend millions of dollars on a system that tells him Bonner is better than Duncan? There are things we don't see here.

worzel gummidge · Feb 16, 2009

http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/mark-cubans-surprising-player-performance-numbers-580/

February 12, 2009, 4:56 pm
Mark Cuban’s Surprising Player-Performance Numbers

Dallas Maverick Jason Kidd averages under 9 points per game. Kidd’s teammate, Dirk Nowitzki, will play in his eighth straight National Basketball Association All-Star game this weekend. His 25.7 points-per-game average ranks fourth in the league.

So why do statistics chartered by Mavs owner Mark Cuban suggest that at least by one metric, Kidd is more valuable? The results are surprising enough, not even Dallas’s own number crunchers can agree on what they mean.

Earlier this week, Cuban posted to his blog a list of the 30 NBA players who have the biggest positive impact on their teams when they’re in the game. They were ranked by a measure inspired by hockey’s plus/minus statistic, reflecting how well a team does with a player on the court, after accounting for the other players on the court with him. Cuban’s plus/minus adjusts for how good the team is without the player on the court as well as for the opponent and for game situations. (Without such adjustments, players on a top team like the Los Angeles Lakers would all look good, because the Lakers so often dominate.)

Kidd and three of the other top 10 players on Cuban’s list won’t be playing at the All-Star Game Sunday in Phoenix: the Philadelphia 76ers’ Andre Iguodala, the Charlotte Bobcats’ Emeka Okafor and Randy Foye of the Minnesota Timberwolves. Kidd ranked second on the list; Devin Harris, whom Dallas traded to New Jersey to acquire Kidd and is a 2009 All-Star, didn’t make the cut. The numbers didn’t favor all Mavs: Nowitzki ranked 23rd, behind Minnesota reserve Sebastian Telfair. (Here’s the entire All-Star roster.)

I sent Cuban’s surprising ratings to Roland Beech, proprietor of the NBA stats site 82games.com, for comment. Beech works on player analysis for the Mavericks and incorporates a version of plus/minus into his own player ratings. But that didn’t keep him from criticizing the numbers Cuban posted. Cuban and Wayne Winston, who developed the system for him, responded. What resulted was a polite yet spirited debate among Cuban and his advisors about how to best analyze players.

Beech told me he considered plus/minus ratings, as adjusted by regression analysis, “one of the most over-hyped player rating systems.” He pointed to the incongruous finding that Telfair is more valuable than Nowitzki, and blamed other questionable results — San Antonio Spurs point guard Tony Parker as a below-average player — on a paucity of data on top players’ performance without their star teammates. Beech also argued that there is too much noise in the system, because a player’s value is determined by coaching schemes, injuries and their assigned roles.

Cuban responded, “Roland is right. He said exactly what I wrote in my blog. But in more words.” But Cuban went on to defend the system, not for ranking players by talent nor for trades, but for determining good lineups and tracking player development. “It’s a system you use to see how [players] are being used and contributing in the short term, and how good they are over the long term,” Cuban said.

Winston, the professor of operations and decision technologies at Indiana University who developed the system for Cuban, said that no system is perfect, but that plus/minus beats other player analyses because it can reflect defensive prowess — and Nowitzki’s defense was subpar at the beginning of the season. It’s with defense, Winston said, that plus/minus “really shines,” because defensive stats such as blocked shots, rebounds and steals can’t encapsulate a player’s worth.

He sent along spreadsheets defending some of the more-controversial rankings — showing, for instance, that the Mavericks have played 180 minutes with Kidd on the court and Nowitzki off it, and they’re five points better than usual in those scenarios. Flip the scenario by removing Kidd while leaving Nowitzki in the game, and the Mavericks are five points worse than usual. Meanwhile, the T-Wolves are at least average in just about any lineup that includes Telfair, but subpar without him.
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Shroopy2 · Feb 16, 2009

just cuz I'm bored and want to waste time

Code:

                                                                          *******
                                   POINTS= OFFENSE-DEFENSE IMPACT%  MINUTES  Z-SCORE  

   1 CLE LeBron James               24.16   17.18   -6.98   62.49%  1807.01   3.2034
        CLE   last    3/ 48         17.73   13.28   -4.45   33.24%   120.40
        CLE   last    5/ 48         19.78   14.07   -5.71   35.22%   195.22
        CLE   last    8/ 48         22.44   19.96   -2.48   62.95%   314.52
        CLE  window   6/  6 tm      18.11   15.06   -3.05   38.41%   232.74
        CLE  varies  48/ 48       ( 13.98)(  9.61)( 11.59)( 33.61%) 1807.01

   2 DAL Jason Kidd                 17.12   11.69   -5.44   64.94%  1761.98   2.7861
        DAL   last    3/ 50          5.16    7.90    2.74   54.54%   102.94
        DAL   last    5/ 50         23.37   15.72   -7.65   84.60%   173.52
        DAL   last    8/ 50         23.35   17.62   -5.73   72.93%   273.98
        DAL  window   7/  7 tm      21.01   16.33   -4.68   71.25%   240.58
        DAL  varies  50/ 50       ( 18.86)( 11.26)( 13.35)( 44.76%) 1761.98

   3 MIA Dwyane Wade                17.56   21.34    3.78   58.90%  1867.31   2.7435
        MIA   last    3/ 49         20.80   28.17    7.36   61.64%   123.53
        MIA   last    5/ 49          8.99   20.71   11.72   41.22%   195.08
        MIA   last    8/ 49         14.03   21.13    7.09   51.66%   294.94
        MIA  window   7/  7 tm      12.34   20.23    7.89   47.16%   258.72
        MIA  varies  49/ 49       ( 14.63)( 10.87)( 11.52)( 41.38%) 1867.31

   4 NOH Chris Paul                 21.12    7.93  -13.19   51.91%  1685.00   2.7183
        NOH   last    3/ 45         17.54    4.67  -12.86   16.65%    97.48
        NOH   last    5/ 45         20.71    5.81  -14.90   30.71%   177.90
        NOH   last    8/ 45         19.80    6.77  -13.02   39.15%   292.83
        NOH  window   5/  7 tm      20.71    5.81  -14.90   30.71%   177.90
        NOH  varies  45/ 45       ( 14.11)( 11.01)(  9.39)( 44.43%) 1685.00

   5 PHI Andre Iguodala             17.19    6.63  -10.56   56.90%  1896.28   2.6702
        PHI   last    3/ 49         11.57    0.78  -10.79   17.94%   121.20
        PHI   last    5/ 49         10.46   -1.02  -11.49   11.77%   201.57
        PHI   last    8/ 49         12.05    2.09   -9.97   33.83%   318.73
        PHI  window   7/  7 tm       9.75   -0.63  -10.38   21.10%   277.32
        PHI  varies  49/ 49       ( 12.19)(  9.86)(  8.69)( 53.51%) 1896.28

   6 BOS Ray Allen                  16.35    8.67   -7.68   43.50%  1897.46   2.2523
        BOS   last    3/ 52         14.36    7.84   -6.52   45.06%   124.18
        BOS   last    5/ 52         15.95    9.57   -6.37   54.50%   196.90
        BOS   last    8/ 52         20.13   13.09   -7.03   64.21%   300.94
        BOS  window   7/  7 tm      18.81   14.46   -4.35   61.31%   263.15
        BOS  varies  52/ 52       ( 16.46)( 12.76)( 10.89)( 48.47%) 1897.46

   7 ORL Rashard Lewis              12.91    6.86   -6.05   36.79%  1807.13   1.8585
        ORL   last    3/ 49          6.35    2.39   -3.96   16.82%   107.88
        ORL   last    5/ 49         14.77    6.01   -8.76   37.84%   188.08
        ORL   last    8/ 49         13.99    5.39   -8.60   29.24%   296.12
        ORL  window   6/  6 tm      19.24    9.51   -9.73   41.18%   221.53
        ORL  varies  49/ 49       ( 14.65)( 13.63)(  8.43)( 46.65%) 1807.13

   8 CHA Emeka Okafor               10.37   -0.14  -10.50   40.37%  1679.99   1.7337
        CHA   last    3/ 49         -7.12   -5.99    1.13  -12.95%    91.05
        CHA   last    5/ 49          7.75   -0.68   -8.44   38.49%   166.86
        CHA   last    8/ 49         13.98    1.66  -12.33   44.26%   253.02
        CHA  window   6/  6 tm       9.59   -0.65  -10.24   41.10%   198.14
        CHA  varies  49/ 49       ( 15.66)( 11.01)( 11.83)( 48.23%) 1679.99

   9 MIN Randy Foye                  9.09    9.93    0.84   43.24%  1768.34   1.6464
        MIN   last    3/ 49          6.34    5.95   -0.39   52.70%   128.74
        MIN   last    5/ 49          3.43   10.77    7.35   34.21%   201.94
        MIN   last    8/ 49          4.37    6.20    1.83   33.23%   325.41
        MIN  window   8/  8 tm       4.37    6.20    1.83   33.23%   325.41
        MIN  varies  49/ 49       ( 12.65)( 11.81)( 12.67)( 45.62%) 1768.34

  10 HOU Yao Ming                    9.64   -0.18   -9.83   34.83%  1579.31   1.5627
        HOU   last    3/ 48          7.81    7.42   -0.39   33.89%    99.06
        HOU   last    5/ 48          7.42    5.80   -1.62   25.29%   167.78
        HOU   last    8/ 48          8.26    5.11   -3.15   31.07%   245.35
        HOU  window   5/  7 tm       7.42    5.80   -1.62   25.29%   167.78
        HOU  varies  48/ 48       ( 13.21)( 11.94)( 10.35)( 48.19%) 1579.31

HTML:

                                                                         *******
                                   POINTS= OFFENSE-DEFENSE IMPACT%  MINUTES  Z-SCORE  
  11 ATL Joe Johnson                 8.69    3.09   -5.59   37.43%  1917.51   1.5229
        ATL   last    3/ 48          3.67    4.44    0.77   26.02%   121.73
        ATL   last    5/ 48         -1.44    0.51    1.95    9.43%   205.94
        ATL   last    8/ 48          2.25    2.08   -0.17   15.91%   324.04
        ATL  window   6/  8 tm      -1.95   -0.15    1.81    6.23%   249.22
        ATL  varies  48/ 48       ( 13.21)(  9.57)( 12.38)( 38.42%) 1917.51

  12 BOS Kevin Garnett               9.43    3.16   -6.27   32.43%  1594.00   1.4937
        BOS   last    5/ 49         12.52    7.36   -5.16   49.46%   156.75
        BOS   last    8/ 49         17.92    4.95  -12.97   53.54%   250.13
        BOS  window   5/  7 tm      12.52    7.36   -5.16   49.46%   156.75
        BOS  varies  49/ 49       ( 18.27)( 13.57)( 12.38)( 50.83%) 1594.00

  13 DEN Nene                       10.79    2.87   -7.92   27.47%  1642.84   1.4643
        DEN   last    3/ 50          8.22    7.28   -0.94   49.03%    89.46
        DEN   last    5/ 50         11.18    9.19   -1.99   39.02%   156.01
        DEN   last    8/ 50         12.80    6.92   -5.88   32.15%   246.48
        DEN  window   8/  8 tm      12.80    6.92   -5.88   32.15%   246.48
        DEN  varies  50/ 50       ( 16.25)( 14.16)( 10.14)( 52.28%) 1642.84

  14 DET Rasheed Wallace             8.63    2.58   -6.05   33.16%  1481.02   1.4407
        DET   last    3/ 44         15.98    9.32   -6.65   65.70%   124.29
        DET   last    5/ 44         13.37    4.73   -8.64   66.60%   201.85
        DET   last    8/ 44          9.38    4.49   -4.89   47.81%   292.05
        DET  window   6/  6 tm      12.45    5.93   -6.52   56.45%   240.59
        DET  varies  44/ 44       ( 15.85)( 11.22)( 11.86)( 54.42%) 1481.02

  15 LAL Kobe Bryant                 9.19    8.50   -0.70   27.97%  1793.17   1.3706
        LAL   last    3/ 49         14.01   16.74    2.73   63.87%   119.44
        LAL   last    5/ 49         12.59   19.61    7.02   49.08%   189.05
        LAL   last    8/ 49         12.41   15.76    3.35   42.00%   294.68
        LAL  window   7/  7 tm      10.59   14.99    4.39   43.58%   266.58
        LAL  varies  49/ 49       ( 13.82)( 10.12)( 12.01)( 47.40%) 1793.17

  16 UTA Andrei Kirilenko           12.17    6.78   -5.39   21.92%  1139.46   1.3604
        UTA   last    3/ 38         11.53   13.86    2.33   19.61%    75.18
        UTA   last    5/ 38          9.32   14.02    4.70    9.43%   156.50
        UTA   last    8/ 38         14.04   16.55    2.51   15.45%   243.33
        UTA  window   0/  7 tm       0.00    0.00    0.00    0.00%     0.00
        UTA  varies  38/ 38       ( 18.17)( 11.89)( 13.66)( 56.91%) 1139.46

  17 PHO Grant Hill                  8.33    3.63   -4.70   30.18%  1382.00   1.3534
        PHO   last    3/ 48         19.33   14.43   -4.90   11.05%    89.98
        PHO   last    5/ 48          8.57   11.90    3.33    3.77%   166.17
        PHO   last    8/ 48          5.08    8.13    3.04    6.70%   236.57
        PHO  window   7/  7 tm       9.89   11.36    1.47   12.46%   210.07
        PHO  varies  48/ 48       ( 21.14)( 14.26)( 14.93)( 54.56%) 1382.00

  18 UTA Paul Millsap               11.20    3.62   -7.58   22.82%  1444.24   1.3473
        UTA   last    3/ 45         24.72    8.32  -16.40   41.92%    88.94
        UTA   last    5/ 45         18.68   10.25   -8.44   27.36%   158.35
        UTA   last    8/ 45          7.85    4.91   -2.95    1.34%   267.38
        UTA  window   7/  7 tm       9.85    5.53   -4.32    9.80%   226.25
        UTA  varies  45/ 45       ( 17.56)( 10.11)( 13.49)( 46.96%) 1444.24

  19 NJN Jarvis Hayes                8.04   -0.86   -8.90   29.31%  1164.38   1.3109
        NJN   last    3/ 46         23.51   -1.09  -24.59   28.15%    78.13
        NJN   last    5/ 46         16.82   -6.82  -23.64   48.06%   131.01
        NJN   last    8/ 46         13.98   -6.05  -20.03   23.98%   194.42
        NJN  window   7/  7 tm      11.23   -8.71  -19.94   14.09%   172.93
        NJN  varies  46/ 46       ( 19.24)( 14.35)( 14.12)( 59.98%) 1164.38

  20 POR LaMarcus Aldridge           7.69    3.77   -3.92   30.72%  1789.65   1.3095
        POR   last    3/ 49         -0.04   -1.68   -1.64   19.85%   123.20
        POR   last    5/ 49          7.81    2.71   -5.10   30.56%   192.67
        POR   last    8/ 49          4.06    1.89   -2.18   23.90%   305.24
        POR  window   6/  6 tm       7.45    2.81   -4.63   35.02%   226.91
        POR  varies  49/ 49       ( 15.23)( 13.36)(  8.97)( 50.43%) 1789.65

Code:

                                                                          *******
                                   POINTS= OFFENSE-DEFENSE IMPACT%  MINUTES  Z-SCORE  

  21 UTA Mehmet Okur                 6.72    3.48   -3.24   35.80%  1491.46   1.3032
        UTA   last    3/ 43         22.27    9.73  -12.54   69.04%   104.35
        UTA   last    5/ 43         14.79    9.82   -4.97   49.40%   173.36
        UTA   last    8/ 43          7.97    5.26   -2.71   32.81%   272.60
        UTA  window   7/  7 tm       8.89    5.80   -3.09   37.37%   250.76
        UTA  varies  43/ 43       ( 14.34)( 10.51)( 10.17)( 43.33%) 1491.46

  22 MIN Sebastian Telfair           5.65    1.78   -3.87   46.12%  1126.73   1.2886
        MIN   last    3/ 44          5.53   -0.43   -5.96   55.48%    92.25
        MIN   last    5/ 44          4.88    6.03    1.15   44.59%   160.05
        MIN   last    8/ 44          4.11    1.89   -2.22   49.30%   254.67
        MIN  window   8/  8 tm       4.11    1.89   -2.22   49.30%   254.67
        MIN  varies  44/ 44       ( 15.03)( 14.42)( 14.56)( 41.52%) 1126.73

  23 DAL Dirk Nowitzki               7.04    7.08    0.04   30.27%  1836.86   1.2430
        DAL   last    3/ 49          4.89    2.60   -2.29   36.74%   115.33
        DAL   last    5/ 49         16.08    7.51   -8.57   56.35%   189.51
        DAL   last    8/ 49         14.55   10.92   -3.63   44.59%   291.47
        DAL  window   7/  7 tm      12.94    9.48   -3.45   43.81%   254.69
        DAL  varies  49/ 49       ( 18.02)( 10.46)( 13.44)( 47.24%) 1836.86

  24 PHO Steve Nash                 11.71   14.90    3.19   18.33%  1497.80   1.2248
        PHO   last    3/ 44          7.52   21.05   13.53   -4.42%    93.21
        PHO   last    5/ 44          3.44   19.26   15.82  -12.94%   173.73
        PHO   last    8/ 44          4.17   15.48   11.31    1.84%   263.71
        PHO  window   7/  7 tm       8.98   18.86    9.89    8.29%   242.28
        PHO  varies  44/ 44       ( 17.71)( 12.53)( 12.46)( 57.52%) 1497.80

  25 TOR Chris Bosh                 10.15    7.38   -2.77   19.85%  1948.03   1.2039
        TOR   last    3/ 51         -0.33    4.72    5.04    6.45%    97.50
        TOR   last    5/ 51         -3.84    2.34    6.18    4.43%   172.91
        TOR   last    8/ 51          5.99    6.86    0.87   20.57%   286.96
        TOR  window   6/  8 tm       0.70    3.85    3.15   14.38%   210.41
        TOR  varies  51/ 51       ( 15.42)( 10.30)( 12.11)( 49.95%) 1948.03

  26 LAL Lamar Odom                  8.25    4.25   -4.01   22.85%  1254.11   1.1732
        LAL   last    3/ 46         11.66   10.50   -1.16   65.37%   106.50
        LAL   last    5/ 46          9.70   11.30    1.61   52.25%   159.61
        LAL   last    8/ 46          5.18    5.94    0.76   15.76%   242.97
        LAL  window   7/  7 tm       3.36    3.99    0.63   16.49%   220.27
        LAL  varies  46/ 46       ( 20.55)( 15.10)( 13.85)( 59.77%) 1254.11

  27 CHI Ben Gordon                  6.83    7.33    0.50   27.49%  1836.72   1.1702
        CHI   last    3/ 51          3.17   15.05   11.88   12.35%   104.44
        CHI   last    5/ 51          9.82   15.52    5.71   33.15%   175.44
        CHI   last    8/ 51          6.75   10.05    3.30   18.38%   281.08
        CHI  window   7/  7 tm       9.66   10.82    1.16   26.96%   249.30
        CHI  varies  51/ 51       ( 14.18)( 10.62)( 12.34)( 45.11%) 1836.72

  28 PHI Thaddeus Young              6.68    2.44   -4.24   28.05%  1662.23   1.1680
        PHI   last    3/ 49         14.82    5.86   -8.96   29.69%   105.76
        PHI   last    5/ 49          5.90   -1.58   -7.48    0.21%   189.84
        PHI   last    8/ 49          7.16    1.40   -5.76   21.08%   296.87
        PHI  window   7/  7 tm       7.49   -0.44   -7.93   18.03%   258.09
        PHI  varies  49/ 49       ( 14.84)( 11.93)(  9.73)( 56.64%) 1662.23

  29 SAS Matt Bonner                 9.88    4.38   -5.51   16.08%  1065.79   1.0762
        SAS   last    3/ 47         12.41    9.54   -2.88   24.40%    75.24
        SAS   last    5/ 47         14.13    9.21   -4.92   35.69%   133.79
        SAS   last    8/ 47          8.89    2.57   -6.32   23.54%   200.32
        SAS  window   6/  6 tm       7.80    4.19   -3.61   20.91%   155.16
        SAS  varies  47/ 47       ( 22.01)( 16.66)( 15.12)( 60.72%) 1065.79

  30 GSW Andris Biedrins             4.42    1.19   -3.23   35.21%  1548.46   1.0627
        GSW   last    3/ 50         20.95   22.70    1.75   86.50%    67.43
        GSW   last    5/ 50         15.08    9.25   -5.83   68.29%   115.38
        GSW   last    8/ 50          7.95    4.14   -3.80   52.27%   201.71
        GSW  window   7/  7 tm       9.09    4.08   -5.01   51.50%   166.84
        GSW  varies  50/ 50       ( 14.19)( 12.77)( 11.53)( 50.93%) 1548.46

These new statistical measures just make we want to rely on my eyes more. Or just treat it as mere helpful analysis. This just shows Randy Foye's suck *ss team tends to rely on him.

durvasa · Feb 16, 2009

Shroopy2 said:

These new statistical measures just make we want to rely on my eyes more. Or just treat it as mere helpful analysis. This just shows Randy Foye's suck *ss team tends to rely on him.
Click to expand...

I think that's how Cuban is treating it -- as helpful analysis.

durvasa · Feb 16, 2009

There's really nothing his top 30 player list could show that wouldn't cause fans to scoff at it. If its just a listing of the players you'd expect, the response would be, "Well, duh. I could have told you that without all the fancy-schmancy formulas." If it shows players you wouldn't expect, then the response invariably is, "This list is worthless. Those players clearly don't belong."

Easy · Feb 16, 2009

durvasa said:

There's really nothing his top 30 player list could show that wouldn't cause fans to scoff at it. If its just a listing of the players you'd expect, the response would be, "Well, duh. I could have told you that without all the fancy-schmancy formulas." If it shows players you wouldn't expect, then the response invariably is, "This list is worthless. Those players clearly don't belong."
Click to expand...

Exactly.

To criticize a analytical system simply because they don't agree with common perceptions is pointless. The point of these systems is to check AGIANST common perceptions to see if they have objective validity.

If you want to criticize a system, you need to point out the flaws in its methodology. Unfortunately for us average fans, we do not have access to the details of these systems to know enough for any meaningful critique.

Shroopy2 · Feb 17, 2009

durvasa said:

I think that's how Cuban is treating it -- as helpful analysis.
Click to expand...

Generally there's not a stat that I dont like. I think in this case it was more the anti-Cuban bias speaking out

roslolian · Feb 17, 2009

LOL Jarvis Hayes with 1-6 from the field for 6 pts in 16 minutes of play. Maybe this game will cause Nash and Bosh to pass him in ranking

durvasa · Feb 17, 2009

roslolian said:

LOL Jarvis Hayes with 1-6 from the field for 6 pts in 16 minutes of play. Maybe this game will cause Nash and Bosh to pass him in ranking
Click to expand...

The analysis didn't say Jarvis Hayes was playing well on offense. It said he was a fantastic on defense.

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