Actually, reading the post above yours, it seems summer does. Maybe it's a stretch, but my point is moral changes over time. The argument that's going for her is that if it's her beliefs, and she's not "hurting" any one by her beliefs, others should conform, or make exceptions for that person. I personally think that's a very dangerous path to tread. It's not that different to I don't want my children to be exposed to cross dressers/ gays. Which isn't very different then I don't want to expose my children to interracial couples. Which isn't very different to I don't want to expose my children to black people.
Man...I thought wizkid's comparison was uncalled-for and rather off base... ....until I saw people who agreed with it.
This is the whole problem with your logic, because you seem to think that all cross dressers are homosexual, and thus, that means that anyone who opposes cross dressing must be homephobic. Cross dressing is also known as a perverse sexual fetish. And how on this earth you can associate a parent not wanting their 4 year old exposed to that, or to even learn about, when they have no comprehension of those consequences, with racism is beyond me. Quite frankly, your association of opposition to cross dressing with racism against african americans is insulting to african americans IMO. I guess if i don't want my son hanging around kids that play with guns ...then I must be racist too right? I guess if i don't want my son hanging around kids that do drugs...then I must be racist too right? I guess if I don't want my son hanging around kids who cuss blue streaks ...then I must be a racist too right? Your entire insinuation is grossly insulting.
Which isn't very different from sayign that I don't want my children exposed to drugs. You are creating false links to prove a highly subjective opinion. In fact, I don't have a problem wth my son being exposed to interacial couples, seeing as how my wife regularly takes our son over to one of our neighbors house to play, who happen to be an interacial couple. I guess your flawed link has been broken.
There's only one way to keep this thing from going to D&D, I'm going to apologize. This article made me mad because I see it as forcing values, sometimes extreme ones upon other people. I've seen how it worked in history and made a saracastic/insulting (the / means or, not neccessary means I believe they are th samething) comment. In this case, I guess I cross the bounds of civility and made some people angry. For that I apologize. I still hold to my beliefs that push different moral beliefs upon people of different background/value is wrong, so to keep my self from doing just that, I would just like to apologize once again. Hold on to your beliefs, you are as entitled to them as I am to mine. "I don't agree with what you say, but I'll fight for your right to say it", don't whose quote that was but it seems to fit.
Kids dressing up for fun is not crossdressing. Crossdressing has a definite agenda and purpose. Crossdressing is not a "perverse sexual fetish". You know nothing about it. If I were you, I would be more concerned with you son watching chick-flicks than having fun at school. Those movies are more likely to have your son get way in touch with his feminine side than a dress-up Sadie Hawkins Day. But, I would be wary about daughters wearing camouflage hunting gear, becoming in touch with their masculine side. That could lead to, uh, I don't know, but it must be perverse. And no, I'm not a crossdresser. I'm just not threatened.
All this crap is getting old and stupid...i can't believe the kind of stuff people are doing these days..i mean when i was in highschool so much went on but no one cared...now everything is about being politically correct..or this will corrupt our kids... Im sorry but if kids these days get maniuplated that easy it's becaus eof the parents. I had enough stuff around me when i was in high school or whatever but i didn't go out and do it. All this starts and ends in the home....if they parent like they should then half this crap wouldn't happen.
This thread is confusing. It's as if there are two sides arguing their respective points, but the intersection of those points is very thin and tenuous. One side is arguing Point A: very young children should not be exposed to older, high school kids flashing their fake breasts, using lewd, inappropriate pseudonyms and pole dances. Other side is arguing Point B: There is nothing intrinsically wrong with little kids dressing up as the opposite gender for the purposes of fun. Okay...but those two really only have anything to do with each other when Point B causes Point A. To me, it's not much different than young children being allowed to own a dog. There is nothing wrong with owning that dog, and maybe taking it to show and tell occasionally. But the dog goes nuts one day, tears up some stuff, craps on the floor or, God forbid, bites another child, I would have no problem with the school outlawing dogs from the school for the purposes of fun. They're not saying owning a dog is evil or wrong...they just don't want it in their school because it can lead to problems. Same thing happened in the scenario Castor recounted at the school with the cross dressing day. I have no problem with the school wanting to prevent those kind of problems. So the questions boil down to this, in my mind: Does anyone believe there is something basically, morally wrong with little kids putting on dresses and goofing off? Does anyone think it is perfectly okay for little kids being exposed to mock strip teases and pole dances?
Good post Raven. The answer to both questions for me is "no". I think it'll be helpful to at least clarify everyone's positions if they answer Raven's questions, so we at least know where each other stands. Question for codell: Do you agree with Point B as Raven has stated it? Would you be opposed to cross dressing for your kid even if it was done without the lewd flashing of boobs and pole dances? If you're ok with Point B, then there really is no issue, we're all arguing across diff. points as Raven said. But if you are... well there is a point of contention. As Voodoopope said earlier, this quote in the original article is what I too have a problem with: "It might be fun today to dress up like a little girl -- kids think it's cute and things like that. And you start playing around with it and, like drugs, you do a little here and there (and) eventually it gets you," Davies told reporters." The woman is pretty much simplistically equating homosexuality with drug addiction.
So some men don't cross dress for habitual sexual gratification? Really? The American Psychiatric Association disagrees with you. http://trans.sister.org/PressGang/pg100003.html And if I were you, I would raise your kid as you see fit and let me raise mine as I see fit. You have a right to allow your 4 year old to cross dress and/or be exposed to cross dressing. I have a right not to allow mine. btw ...my 4 year old will be watching Disney movies, and movies that he finds entertaining. I am quite confident that most 4 year old boys don't find enjoyment in watching Steel Magnolias or other "chick-flicks". There are certain wardrobes that transcend gender gaps, like slacks and even camouflage jackets Please let me know dresses breach that gap. And I am not threatened either. Just trying to raise my son with my wife and my sense of morals and values.
I would call it more socially wrong than morally wrong. Under no circumstances would I feel this is ok or appropriate for my son to see unti is of age. Some parents, parents I know, allow their young kids (talking about kids in elementary school) to watch movies with scenes that you dipict. More power to them. They make that choice as parents and that means they have to deal with any reprocussions that may arise as a result of that choice. Just like I have to deal with the reprocussions of not allowing my son to see or do some of the things that his friends might be allowed to do or from "sheltering" him too much.
But some of us, including myself aren't. Some of us just don't believe in allowing our sons to frolic in travestite like activities at a young age.
Exactly!!! It's why my posts usually came with the disclaimer saying that, "if what Castor says is true..." Kids play dress up all the time. No problem there. It's the exposure to the other stuff that I'd rather have my child avoid. and again...I'M HIS FREAKING FATHER!!! you can disagree with me all you want. but it's not your call. it's mine. he's my responsibility. i'm just asking...can we keep pole dances and groping out of public school?? thanks in advance!
Noted. You aren't homophobic. But are you afraid of transvestites? Or are you afraid that your kid will become a transvestite because of cross dressing even without the lewd pole dancing, etc.? (Raven's scenario in Point B) If the school was conditioning my kid to become a transvestite by holding such activities, then I would be against it. But I fail to see the jump from what is mentioned in the article and Point B to turning the kid into a transvestite. If my kid turns out to be a transvestite when he grows up, I'll just have to accept thats who he is. If TWIRP Day was just what is happening in Point B, you can't blame TWIRP. Sometimes that's just the way people are born. I have a friend that is saving up to go for a sex change op (he is currently on hormones already). And I can tell you that he wasn't encouraged to be that way. He comes from a conservative home, and his family is still coming to terms with his decision. Growing up, his sexual preference was always the other way around from as young as he can remember. My point is, the decision to make the leap and become a transvestite takes a lot more than social conditioning, and certainly a lot more than what is going on in the scenario in Point B. Given my point in the above paragraph, if you accept that line of reasoning, then what is the problem? Is it because you think cross dressing is wrong simply because it is "a transvestite-like activity" even when it isn't being treated as such at TWIRP in the scenario in Point B? If it is, then I have nothing else to say, except that we have different opinions on the topic, and yes, I think a parent does deserve the right to pull his kid out of such activities if he feels its inappropriate - I hope parents still have this right. Just trying to understand where you are coming from.
I have 2 lesbians that live next door on the right side of my house, 2 gay guys that live next door on the left side and a transvestite (man living as a woman so what does that make him?) living across the street. I've never seen any of them "frolic" around. How should I best protect my children from these people? It never even occured to me that I should be worried about my children turning gay from being exposed to people who live life differenly than we do. These people have all always been very nice and I find it very sad that they are looked down upon and discriminated against by so many people in todays society. It's not as though they have the plague and can infect the members of my family... oh no come to think of it my 2 year old son wanted to play dress up with his 4 year old sister the other day, and he wanted his nails painted when she got hers painted, and my wife mentioned that Eva Longoria from desperate housewifes was HOT!. I think it's happening, 2 members of my family have caught the homoplague and they weren't even exposed to any frolicing. We're all doomed.
Im afraid of nothing, again. Just like I am not afraid if my kid starts cussing. However, I believe its wrong for a child to cuss, and therefore, will not allow my son to be in an environment where cussing is promoted. It has nothing to do with being afraid, and everything to do with making choices, as a parent, for my child, based on what I feel is socially acceptable for someone his age to do or not to do. Ive already explained where I am coming from. I don't agree with cross dressing and feel it is socially wrong. And anything that my wife and I feel is socially, or even morally wrong, will be kept away from our children. Period. In additional unconditional love, thats one of the things parents have a responsiblity to provide to their child. To make choices for them until they are old enough to understand WHAT those choices are and WHY those choices can have consequences later on in life, good or bad. Furthermore, re: "the way people are born", thats a completely different subject. If my 4 year old, unprovoked, starts wearing my wife's clothes around the house because he likes it, then we will deal with that. Thats completely different than if someone else introduces it to him. Just like if my kid gets the flu from my wife or I or gets it from me sending him into a room full of sick kids. I can't control his biological urges. I can control what he is exposed to at school. I find it funny that some here in continue to pin me as some type of minority with regards to this issue, as if I am one of the select few that have a problem with cross dressing.
come on guys...are you really that dense??? he's not afraid...he's saying he'd rather not expose his 4 YEAR OLD to that!!! 4 YEAR OLD!!!! i'm not afraid of heterosexual sex. in fact, i freaking love it. i'm not sure my 4 YEAR OLD is ready for it, though....but I guess I'm old fashioned that way. I should probably be taking him with me to strip clubs every weekend. Maybe I should let him sit in the room while my wife and I are intimate. Ya know...no big deal. come on....grasp reality here. WE'RE TRYING TO HAVE A SOCIETY HERE!!!
