i can't believe you guys are spending this much time arguing music!!! you either like it or you don't...end of story.
Ehhhhh. Sort of. The Ramones are a big influence, yeah, but Jon Savage's England's Dreaming gives a more nuanced explanation of punk in the UK. Great, *great* book. He's my favourite music writer, I think. MadMax: it's not a question of music. It's a question of life and death! Rimmy, I don't care that they get compared *by* someone to Zeppelin - I care that they're comparing *themselves* to Zeppelin. Sheeeeit, Paul friggin' McCartney is more self-deprecating!
Some people are so insecure about what they like, especially when what they like isn't played on the radio or on MTV or doesn't sell millions of copies that they have to bash them when they'd give their left testicle to be as successful as them. Pathetic.
true...what I find interesting is how people identify themselves by the music they listen to. "I'm a grunge guy...so here's how I dress...and here's how I think..." Or "I'm a hip hopper...so here's how I have to dress...and here's how I'm supposed to think." I find that to be quite sad.
Yeah, you guys are right. The reason I hate Creed is because I'm really jealous of successful bands. Which is why I'm obsessed with the *Beatles*. Because they're not very mainstream *at all*, and they *never* get played on the radio, so it makes me feel superior to all you plebs. Also, liking the Beatles forces me to wear Beatle-dress and conform to Beatle-think, the most insidious of all brainwashing. It's like a cult, really. In other words: stupid argument.
The funny thing is that I don't like Creed. At all. I just don't feel the need to get jealous, or want his vocal chords to be ripped out, or even feel the need to b**** about it on a ****ing BBS. If I hear music I don't like, I do a really simple thing...DON'T ****ING LISTEN TO IT!!
MM, you really shouldn't devalue the impact music has had on a lot of people's lives simply because it doesn't have a similiar effect on you. after all, i could very easily say the same thing about religion (you either believe or you don't), but then, i'd be disregarding how impactful it's been for many, many people, yourself included, iirc. ehhhhh. sort of? i'm not sure who jon savage is (wasn't in he in the deer hunter?), but the ramones' tour of england in the mid 70's is largely seen as a watershed moment in that country's musical history. maybe bands were already formed and hitting clubs, but none of them would have ever seen the light of day were it not for the ramones. here's a piece of the ramones' bio from the rock-n-roll hall of fame web site: "The Ramones revitalized rock and roll at one of its lowest ebbs, infusing it with punk energy, brash attitude and a loud, fast new sound. When the punk-rock quartet from Queens hit the street in 1976 with their self-titled first album, the rock scene in general had become somewhat bloated and narcissistic. The Ramones got back to basics: simple, speedy, stripped-down rock and roll songs. Voice, guitar, bass, drums. No makeup, no egos, no light shows, no nonsense. And though the subject matter was sometimes dark, emanating from a sullen adolescent basement of the mind, the group also brought cartoonish fun and high-energy excitement back to rock and roll. They launched the grassroots punk-rock movement in New York and London – the Clash were among those who paid heed when the Ramones first toured Britain – and helped downsize rock from arenas and stadiums to the more sensibly scaled environs of clubs and neighborhood holes-in-the-wall." they're most certainly one of rock's most influential bands. i, myself, threw out my KISS albums the first time i heard the ramones.
yeah, because the BBS should be used for more constructive things, like........ btw, how's the movie review web site....?
Touche, b****. Isn't that what you, and all other Creed (or whatever other music you don't find appealing) bashers are doing? There are many people, obviously, who find that Creed's music has an impact on their lives. Is that not OK?
I honestly don't understand this argument... 1. You're devaluing the impact Creed has had on its fans on this very board 2. I'm not devaluing the impact of music...I'm simply saying there is very little grey area...you either like Group A or you don't like Group A...what's to argue??? "I love Creed!" "I hate Creed!" Great...it's art...it's subjective...argument ends right there! 3. Comparing religion to musical tastes is a bit of a stretch. I believe the Creator of the universe atoned for my eternal imperfections...can you see how the implications might be a bit more significant than, "I'm a Run DMC fan!"???? Please tell me you can... 4. Music is great...music can be quite powerful...I'm not devaluing music...I'm simply saying that at some fundamental level, your tastes are entirely subjective. You may love sushi...I hate it....argue all you want..I'm still not gonna like it. The same is true of music...no one can be CONVINCED to like a song...you like it or you don't...which brings me back to my point: I can't believe you guys are wasting this much time arguing over whether or not you like Creed.
touche, back atcha.... except, creed sucks, i mean, come on! regardless, you're right. but since i want to be able to continue to act superior over everyone because of my refined musical tatses, i'll apologize to MM only: sorry, MM. let the creed bashing continue....
I want to crush-ed rockHEAD with my car . As far as who likes and who doesn't like Creed, I really don't care. I find this whole thread to be mildly amusing. It was fun listening to all the hoopla but now it's so over....unless you guys want to stage a big fight were the Creeders take on the anti-Creeders ....this thread should slowly slide down into the forum phantom zone.
you're right; your post was, for the most part, dead-on........ but let's say i didn't believe in god or any religious teachings.... would you be ok with that? knowing full well there was nothing you could do to change my mind short of having george burns himself step down from holy heaven and slap me upside the head... would you still try to convert me? i'm gonna guess you would, and that's the kind of passion some people have for music. and that's why a lot of us would waste our time discussing it. and i think that's the fine line between what some of us are doing (devaluing a group's importance based on our musical tastes) and what you were doing, which is, regardless of taste, minimizing music's importance in people's lives altogether.
Ric, Are you really crediting the Ramones with inventing punk? I will grant that they had a large influence on the scene in the US (and were the first big ones here), but in the UK - where punk was invented - they did not have such a great influence. Just look at the approaches of most UK punkbands - completely different than the Ramones. Mc5's Kick Out the Jams of 1969 was a huge early punk recording - garnered underground success. Hell William S. Burroughs could be given credit for starting punk. The Sex Pistols formed in '75, Clash '76, Crass '77...punk died in '78. I think art died around the same time...hmm... The Ramones first toured the UK in 77...so I don't see how they could have "given birth" to these groups. Also, the Ramones were originally supposed to tour the UK with the Sex Pistols in 76, since the Pistols were already established on the scene and had been recording since '75 - they did their "God Save the Queen" performance along the Thames in '76 as well. I am not trying to bash the Ramones or anything, mind you, I just think you overstated.
The Ramones revitalized a musical form that began with American garage bands of the 60's (get the Nuggets box set to hear some of the best practioners of the form...pop + hormones + grungy guitars + trippy subject matter = hours of fun!) and British invasion groups like The Who and the Kinks. I think the Ramones can be credited with conceptualizing punk as a concept and as a look. I think that is one thing that people forget about the Ramones. They were as much an intellectual reaction against the bloated and bland 70's rockstar era as a musical one. The oral history of punk rock by Legs McNeil is a good companion to Jon Savage's book. Hell, if you want to talk about punk as a spirit of rebellion, Robert Johnson was a punk and I'm sure you can go back to the dawn of time to find other examples. You can't talk about "the birth of punk" as a specific aesthetic without mentioning Iggy Pop, Velvet Underground, and the New York Dolls. An earlier person mentioned the very important MC5 In England, there was also a line of influence including groups like T-Rex and David Bowie, as well as a strong 50's rock and roll revival in the early and mid 1970's. There were all kinds of issues at play in the UK leading to the explosion of punk: class, chronic unemployment, the importance of fashion in defining youth subcultures (much more important in the UK than in the US in the 70's), a feeling of the youth of the time that they missed the boat on the adventures of the '60's, etc. To say that "one band created punk" is like saying that Milton Berle invented television. Thinking about all of this, I will tell you who Creed remind me most of: they are a modern version of Grand Funk Railroad, only with no memorable songs, instead of one, or two. Back in the proverbial day Grand Funk Railroad were one of the biggest bands in the world. They sold out Shea Stadium faster than the Beatles in the early 70's. They has a number of big selling records and they seemed on top of the world. It doesn't take episode of VH1's Behind the Music to tell you that Grand Funk Railroad are more likely to be playing at a state fair than at Shea Stadium now, or even five years after their heyday. Why weren't Grand Funk Railroad able to make more hits like "American Band?" They were one trick ponies and so are Creed, in my opinion.
apples and oranges...religion/theology isn't personal taste remember...Paul not only didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus, he actively persecuted Christians...he ended up changing the scope of western civilization by preaching the Gospel. The Bible is full of non-believers who were "persuaded"....the world today is full of them. There are a few who post who regularly. Would I be OK with you not believing in Christ???? no...not because I believe I'm so right and you're so wrong...but because I believe in a loving God who offers salvation. But I accept everyday that there are tons of people who choose not to follow that path...many of my friends fit that mold. I love them...and I accept the dignity of their free will the same way God does...but that doesn't mean we can't have legitimate conversations about my beliefs about Christ...and, of course, that doesn't mean that I attempt to shove God down their throat. God is not a cosmic rapist who forces his love on people....hell is the ultimate response of God to human choice..He doesn't force his love on you if you don't want it.
Okay, I have stayed out of this as long as I can. I don't really have much to say about a band that I find insipid, but I do have something to say about punk. rimmy is right about MC5 in that "Kick Out the Jams" is a great early punk CD, but you can also argue that Iggy and the Stooges' first 3 CDs including "Raw Power" and "Funhouse" are great early punk CDs as well as the New York Dolls' debut CD or Richard Hell and the Voidoids "Blank Generation" and his other band, Television, and their CD, "Marquee Moon". However, the Ramones along with the Clash and the Buzzcocks (IMO over the Sex Pistols because they flamed out pretty quickly) are probably the 3 greatest punk bands of the late '70's. "London Calling", although some would argue is not a punk CD, is one of the greatest rock CDs of all-time...period. The Ramones self-titled CD is everything that Ric said it was. Very highly influential...they took the blueprint that was started by Iggy, MC5, NYD, etc. and perfected it. It is true that all those bands are no more, but look at what they spawned off: Green Day Offspring Pennywise (great underground band) NOFX Blink 182 (once upon a time a great punk band like the Offspring) Minor Threat Operation Ivy/Rancid Bad Religion Black Flag Descendents Dead Kennedys Misfits Husker Du Pixies Sonic Youth Less Than Jake Sublime (yes I consider them punk) Vandals Lagwagon etc. The list just keeps going and going. Now not all of these bands are still together, and some might argue that the ones that are still together are no longer punk bands, i.e. Blink 182, Green Day, and Offspring. However, it can be argued that the Ramones and some of the bands they influenced wound up influencing: Nirvana Smashing Pumpkins Pearl Jam Stone Temple Pilots and other similar type bands Is punk really dead? I don't think it is. However, it may be dead if you are looking to define it as Ramones-type punk or Clash-punk or even Dead Kennedys-punk. I just think that it is evolving. Here are 25 CDs that I feel are worth listening to if you like punk music (by all means, this is not an inclusive list): London Calling - The Clash Never Mind the Bollocks Here's the Sex Pistols - Sex Pistols Singles Going Steady - Buzzcocks Ramones - The Ramones Losing Streak - Less Than Jake Raw Power - Iggy and the Stooges New York Dolls - New York Dolls Operation Ivy (Energy) - Operation Ivy Misfits - The Misfits Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables - Dead Kennedys Full Circle - Pennywise Complete Discography - Minor Threat Bad Brains - Bad Brains Kick Out the Jams - MC5 Dookie - Green Day Smash - Offspring Punk in Drublic - NOFX Sublime - Sublime Dude Ranch - Blink 182 Milo Goes to College - Descendents ...And Out Comes the Wolves - Rancid Damaged - Black Flag All Ages - Bad Religion M.I.A. - The Germs Zen Arcade - Husker Du
ok, you caught me; "invent" was a poor choice of words; tho the ramones certainly put a unique spin on the genre. i think they are to punk rock what nirvana was to grunge: they didn't invent the form, so much as come to embody it. the ramones made it mainstream, so to speak, and most definitely influenced british punk rock near the end of the decade: from the rock and roll hall of fame:"(The Ramones) launched the grassroots punk-rock movement in New York and London – the Clash were among those who paid heed when the Ramones first toured Britain" from freddie patterson, underground publishing legend: "The Ramones provided the blueprint for nearly every punk-rock band from the time of their debut album to this day, including the Sex Pistols, Nirvana and Green Day." from the torono sun: "Noticing The Ramones' three-chord guitar buzz, 4/4-on-the-floor beats and schlocky tales of juvenile delinquency, scenesters at New York's CBGB club resurrected the "punk" term, which had been loosely applied the snottier garage bands of the '60s and to hellraisers such as The Stooges. It would be more than a year before "punk" was adopted by The Sex Pistols and their British ilk." from joe strummer, clash singer: "This music not only stands the test of time, it totally obliterates everything before it and after it" (strummer also named the ramones "the daddy punk rock group of all time.") from vh1: "The band's debut appearance in London in July 1976 influenced a generation of British punk musicians." from spin (which named the ramones the 2nd most influential rock band of all-time in february): "IN APRIL 1976, THE RAMONES RELEASED THEIR PLANET-ROCKING SELF-TITLED DEBUT: FOURTEEN 3-CHORD ANTHEMS PACKED INTO 29 MINUTES OF VINYL THAT WOULD INSPIRE 1,001 PISSED-OFF DREAMERS TO START THEIR OWN BANDS. WITH APOLOGIES TO THE STOOGES, THE MC5, NEW YORK DOLLS, ETC., IT REPRESENTS THE TRUE BIRTH OF WHAT WE NOW CALL PUNK -- A REVOLUTION OF SOUND AND SPIRIT THAT KICKED ROCK'S FATTENED ASS AND CHANGED THE GROUND RULES FOREVER. " ------------------------------------ the sex pistols were punks; the ramones were punk rock.
