Since I last posted in this thread y'all seem to have laid down heavy philosophical erudition. I'm going to have to brush up on my philosophy 101 before I post here again..
Steven Pinker on the myth of violence <!--copy and paste--><object width="446" height="326"><param name="movie" value="http://video.ted.com/assets/player/swf/EmbedPlayer.swf"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><param name="bgColor" value="#ffffff"></param> <param name="flashvars" value="vu=http://video.ted.com/talks/dynamic/StevenPinker_2007-medium.flv&su=http://images.ted.com/images/ted/tedindex/embed-posters/StevenPinker-2007.embed_thumbnail.jpg&vw=432&vh=240&ap=0&ti=163&introDuration=16500&adDuration=4000&postAdDuration=2000&adKeys=talk=steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence;year=2007;theme=how_the_mind_works;theme=the_rise_of_collaboration;event=TED2007;&preAdTag=tconf.ted/embed;tile=1;sz=512x288;" /><embed src="http://video.ted.com/assets/player/swf/EmbedPlayer.swf" pluginspace="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" bgColor="#ffffff" width="446" height="326" allowFullScreen="true" flashvars="vu=http://video.ted.com/talks/dynamic/StevenPinker_2007-medium.flv&su=http://images.ted.com/images/ted/tedindex/embed-posters/StevenPinker-2007.embed_thumbnail.jpg&vw=432&vh=240&ap=0&ti=163&introDuration=16500&adDuration=4000&postAdDuration=2000&adKeys=talk=steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence;year=2007;theme=how_the_mind_works;theme=the_rise_of_collaboration;event=TED2007;"></embed></object> Summary: [rquoter] Steven Pinker charts the decline of violence from Biblical times to the present, and argues that, though it may seem illogical and even obscene, given Iraq and Darfur, we are living in the most peaceful time in our species' existence. [/rquoter]
Maybe...just maybe you'd have a better experience if you did not refer to somebody's intensely personal religious beliefs "bull****." Just a thought...
You know what, though? I doubt he goes around telling people God doesn't exist. I doubt he walks up to strangers in the streets and says "Your beliefs are wrong". I doubt he wears t-shirts, slaps bumper stickers on his car, or takes out billboards to tell people that God is a fraud. But a whole lot (some might even say the majority) of Christians do those things. They advertise their faith like it was some soft drink. They use Jesus as a slogan on a daily basis. They get in people's faces trying to indoctrinate them, then complain when the atheists push back. Christians, as a group, are pretty pushy. They're not happy having a personal relationship with God: they feel compelled to make others feel the same. I can imagine for an atheist, that can be pretty infuriating after a while. So while I agree that atheists need a better attitude when dealing with Christians, we don't make it very easy for them.
Why is this posted in D&D again? I guess the non-Christians believe anything related to Christianity is up for debate. This is ridiculous.
I think debating a museum is an all time low and pretty ridiculous by the non-Christian crowd, but what do I know. It got 250 posts. It is pointless.
I think it has been quite a worthwhile thread. The museum discussion probably only lasted about 25 posts.
What twhy said - the vast majority of this thread has had little to do with the museum. I only came in because of Fred, I think, and because I always like to "talk" with twhy because he has completely different beliefs but is not stupid and juvenile. If you find such exchanges pointless then I don't ever want to have a point, moon pie. I want to be a butterfly and spread my wings in blissful keyboard strokes. I want to fly to the highest mountain top and proclaim that I, too, am a member of Clutch Fans bbs and as such my pixilated opinions verify my true existence on multiple levels of reality. That is something I could not say pre-1999. That, to me, is magical. I think both Fred and Thom would agree that their minds were blown upon learning about such duality.
LOL, I think you took the pointless comment out of context. Obviously there is a point to any communication regardless of motives for doing so. My point was that the fact that a museum houses christian artifacts as the impetus for a debate on all things christian is pretty ridiculous. And the expression I used to discribe the activity was pointless. But by all means don't let me get into your analytical filibuster.
Oh, I quite disagree. When a "museum" starts to alter facts and present outright lies as fact under the guise of being good "Christians", I think it exposes the entire faith to scrutiny. It's far to simple to say "well, they're just nuts." When progressive, logical Christians sit back and let the nutjobs be the loudest voice, the faith as a whole suffers. Much like mainstream Islam is taking it on the chin a bit because of radical Islamics, mainstream Christians are going to be roped into the same group as their radical associates. Until both groups speak up more to denounce the radical extremists, they will continue to be painted in a negative light.
Yet strangely I see a lot more folks proclaiming the terrorists as not really representative of Islam (which IMO is the proper position) than folks who want to say that rightwing nutjobs arent the true representation of the Christianity. Wondering why Islam seems to get the benefit of the doubt, while Christianity does not. Is it familiarity with one over the other??
I don't think you are in position to tell anyboby, especially other people who don't believe the way you seem to believe, what the bible means or doesn't mean to them. You do realize that there are 1000s of Christian Denominations because Christians don't all think alike, right? I pinned this thread down in my first post. A non-Christian thinking everything that pertains to Christian is suspect and up for debate.
That's exactly my point: Islamics speak up and say "That is not what Islam is all about." Christians stay silent. It's not a matter of "benefit of the doubt". Quite the opposite: unless you speak up, you will be associated with those whose beliefs are the most extreme, most "out-there". For the longest time, Christians have been letting the fringe be the loudest voice, and the faith is suffering because of it. It's time for rational, logical Christians to stand up and say "We aren't going to alter fact and peddle lies in the name of our faith." Because that's what this "museum" is doing. It's presenting the most ridiculous "fact" (people riding dinosaurs? Really?) in the name of God.
Thank you for proving my point: that there is still a great deal to discuss on this subject. Of course all Christians don't think alike. That goes for EVERY religion. That goes for EVERY human, because we are all individuals. But when a fringe group starts to alter fact, to sell lies, to sell-out the most basic Christian beliefs in the name of pushing some political/philosophical dogma, then the members of the faith, regardless of their denomination, should call them on it. To stay silent is to breed extremism and radicalism. So you're saying it isn't up for debate? How open minded. If we, as Christians, cannot defend our beliefs when they are scrutinized, without resorting to name-calling and vitriol, then they must be pretty weak beliefs.
As a junior philosophy enthusiast and student, I understood only a small amount of what the general discuss was about, but it was quite good in terms of enlightenment.
Well, I was having fun and being intentionally pointless. Regardless, this thread was indeed initially in the Hangout and moved over when people started discussing the religious foundations. I don't know why you would be surprised as this is what always happens. All sides want to prove that they are right and "win" so things get bogged down easily. You are right, that part is pointless. Enjoyable exchange of information, however, is not. That is the only "truth" to my previous post and why I don't engage in the other stuff. PS - I do agree all things Christianity (and non-Christianity) are and should be up for debate, regardless of starting point (this is assuming real exchange of ideas, not calling other people stupid and then giving a round of high fives) if it is still within the confines of Christianity. Why did the museum get built (and by whom)? It was built by Christians to promote a Christian viewpoint. Further, it is a Christian viewpoint with which not all Christians agree. As such, it is up for debate amongst a myriad of camps. Further, all thread on this bbs are organic and live a life well beyond anything the OP ever intends or often thinks about. For you to get annoyed about this one instance suggests that you are sensitive to anti-Christian views. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't see the point in calling this out when not calling out every other thread in the history of this (and every) bbs (how is that for hyperbolic?). OK, pointless post #2 out of the way. I liked talking about Nietzsche and Aquinas better, though.
