I would view those as choices you have made. Capability is not even a question- each choice you make establishes and demonstrates capability. I feel you have a sincere desire to do what is right. I really admire your attitude and the honesty of your posts. I am not posting though to persuade you only to share my opinions. I suggest you take this up with God, if He does not exist you have only lost time which is frequently squandered on less important things. If God exists you will find Him faithful to speak to you about it.
But you've made a value judgement there that the Christian Gospel is good and needs to be shared with ohters out of compassion rather than say the Hindu Vedas. Its akin to if I believe that eating a lot of fiber is good for you that its compassionate of me to tell others to eat more fiber, share the good news about oat bran. (Sorry bad joke.) My point is that while you believe you are acting compassionately and not out of a superior attitude you've still made a conscious decision about what belief you feel is better. That you share that with others dosn't change that you've made a value judgement out of a plethora of religious beliefs or no belief at all.
I will try to be simple and non religious- you have a conscience that tells you right and wrong for every right choice your conscience is clear about right and wrong for every wrong choice your conscience loses some ability to differentiate between right and wrong the choices are made morally or freely this means that you can have a free choice be it right or wrong if your conscience is clear if your conscience cannot differentiate between right and wrong you lose a measure of freedom to choose rightly I think the frustration comes in trying to find out what is right and what it wrong This is the God part and that is what is hard to work out. once the conscience is damaged we can actually feel right about doing wrong. Sorry, I am probably not qualified to answer this, but I honestly tried to
This is the basic problem with religion. "Truth" is vitally important to religion yet "truth" is what most divides religions. Every religion will tell you that their beliefs are true yet to say that one belief is true means that every other is false. Yes the focus regarding religion should be the truth of God but how can a Christian or Hindu prove what is the truth of God?
again - nail on the head That is why I respect your posts, you are civil and thoughtful Truth does not belong to me, it belongs to God The issue for me is Divine revelation. And I realize everyone claims it. Can't help you there except to say pick up a Bible, ask God for Divine revelation, read Jesus message and see what God says to you if anything. Wish I had all the answers, but wishing that would be pretty arrogant. The truth is definately the defining issue with regard to religion.
And that is waht seperates people like you and MadMax from the vast majority of religious people I know. You're not religious per say - you're spiritual. And that's a massive differance. I think a spiritual person is subscribing to a philosophical point of view, and trying to act upon it. A religious person is just conforming to some power-structure and acting accordingly - the church's own version of a patriot...
Jesus loves me. That is about as theological as it is for me. Your post is gracious, we Christians struggle deeply, I feel an extra need for Christ, for help and I would say that God's love for me demonstrates amazing graciousness on His part. (Someone wrote a popular song on those lines) Hard to explain faith, Christianity, Jesus...God help us believers in your Son.
And that's as complicated as it should be. I'll never join a "religion" again. I'm not sure if I believe in god myself, but from all I've read regarding christianity, this is all the message should be. And arguments about circular logic and irrationality are fun, but really pointless. We're talking about faith - it kind of requires an absence of logic or proof.
Thanks, it's clear enough I personally have never encountered this particular perspective, so it's pretty informative as well However.. "you lose a measure of freedom to choose rightly" does not sound like free will to me Does a devout Muslim have the capability to exercise his free will and become a Christian? From your explanation, I would have to assume his brain is addled from making too many "wrong" choices as a Muslim from birth, such that he is unable to make the "right" choice in turning to Christianity now? I say he's incapable of becoming a Christian not just because he doesn't want to - it's because he's incapable of even wanting to do so in the first place This is my take. We are bound to certain behavioural parameters, determined by upbringing, personality and even random circumstances. These aren't fixed, because people change.. however, we can never behave outside of these parameters at any point in time. If you ask me to go on a killing spree now, I simply can't do it. But if you hit me on the head hard and damage my brain so that I think killing is a natural and desirable act, then I easily can You can say free will exists within these parameters.. but the fact that there are parameters at all goes against the very definition of free will, doesn't it? A very complex computer program may give the illusion of choice and randomness - indeed, from the program's perspective, it's even exercising its own free will. But the fact remains there are many things it can't do, and these are determined by its code, by the very fabric of its being. Granted, we humans have very, very complex programming, but the theory is still applicable You, sir, are correct. I wish it wasn't this way.. but you're correct
Which kinds of makes the "god gave you free will to love him" statement to me bogus. That idea is super, but yet you still have to have faith in something billions of people don't even see. Why does god have to be so cryptic and mysterious. Is he shy? He doesn't have to program me to be perfect, but all I am asking is to make his existence established and irrefutable. He sure does make things unneccesarily difficult.
You have thought this out well. I could only respond to this with more deep thoughts, but instead I would say that God is a factor in all this and if you would again consider looking into the Bible (remember that is the holy book I am going to recommend from my own opinions) I am sure He is able to talk to you about all this. Thanks for probing deeply into the human heart. I will only say that our separation from God is a huge factor, then say this- motives- choices- character- thoughts, words and actions here is a small progression demonstrating there are some very complex factors in why people make the choices they make. As far as a devout Muslim becoming a Christian. God is the factor- with Him all things are possible. But free choice is complicated by our own consciences, character and motives. That is why man cannot become a Christian without God's help or grace. Becoming a Christian is God's workmanship.
To make Himself known He lived a pauper's life here on earth feeling the human emotions and suffering of this world, dying cruelly, shamefully and painfully on a Roman cross in plain sight- he is not shy.
Exactly, and that brings confusion on the subject, the Bible puts it this way- wrong choices can make us slaves to wrong choices. To demonstrate this if you have free use of your arm to throw a baseball and then you were put into prison with your arms hanging chained to a wall, this wrong use of your arms over a long time period will rob you of the free choice to use your arm as intended. Your nerves, muscles and blood vessels are becoming damaged by this choice. Once you are released then the free choice to use your arms as intended can be restored again.
it's very difficult to have real discussions when people are trying to read motives in to your posts. i don't have an agenda. go read a book. i already suggested Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. but i'm guessing no one will pick it up...because they can't make cute counter-points to the author.
Awww, that's a saweet sentiment. But a baby's instinct is to get fed, it learns to manipulate it's mother (crying) to get what it needs. I've got 4 under 3's hanging around my house these days and those boys learned greed and agression all on their own, By my observation it is really quite natural, I mean no one had taught them to push each other down and take toys, but they do it. They have to be taught tolerance and sharing (love?) There is no love in a survival of the fittest world.
It is a great read written by a man far wiser than most of us Christians posting. MadMax is an example of a follower of Christ. My opinion from the fellowship we have shared. I would trust his advice to anyone at the church where I am the pastor on any Christian subject. That says alot these days. God is love.
You're very kind, thanks I think all of us, as human beings, have the responsibility to keep searching for truth, even if truth itself is ultimately unattainable/unknowable. I get disappointed when people tell me they've stopped searching, and in my experience this is usually due to them a) being apathetic, or b) already subscribing to a religion and closing out all other ways of thinking. That's why I really appreciate the discussion we get on this board.. then again, maybe I'm born to be a conflict-monger Hence, no free will
If people question at all I don't think he has truly made himself known. Just about everyone will say the sky is blue when asked. That is making yourself known.
Come now, there was a very clear point beneath those awfully cute counterpoints.. being a little touchy, no? To think I apologised in the very same post, heh
