the churches in those countries tend to think US churches and Western churches in general are far too liberal, theologically. I really don't think so. They are against elective wars with the resultant large scale killings and the death penalty, unlike the Southern Baptist Convention, for instance. It is true that the present pope tried to suppress liberation theology, mistakenly believing perhaps that this was the Soviet style communism of his youth. Despite this, he and the non Western Church tend to view extreme poverty as a moral issue and not one to be left solely to trickle down or Milton Friedman cult of market ecoomics currently in vogue in Washington, which is acquiesced to, if not enthusiastically supported, by conservative evangelicals in the US. I'm not even all that sure the Latin Americans are so against married priests or view abortion as the single most important evil of mankind, given the starvation, povery and aids epidemic that confronts them. After all it is most famously in Latin America where liberation theology arose and still has influence below the conservative cardinals appointed by the deceased pope.
Or he could have correctly believed that non-violent struggle like the Solidarity movement was preferrable to the violent marxist revolutionaries in Latin America at the time. Not sure how the Sandinistas, Castro, the FMLN, or the Shining Path are that much different that Soviet era communists.
glynch -- the death penalty is a non-issue for the Catholic Church, anyway. it's spoken out against the death penalty for a long time, now. i can only tell you what i know from personal experience. not a perfect polling of a huge sample size. i know that the US is where the rest of the world sends TONS of missionaries, because they feel we're so off-track here. i personally know Korean and Brazilian missionaries who are here for that very reason. i know that in the Episcopal Church debate over ordination of homosexuals, African and S. American churches have been the most vocal in saying this would split the worldwide church if western churches started doing that.
Max, I noticed that you left out the issue of elective war. Certainly many evangelical church's in the US, as well as the Catholic Church send missionaries to Africa and Latin America. Are you really so sure that there are more coming here and than we send abroad? You hear all the time of US missionaries in other countries. As far as the Catholic Church goes, and I still go occasionally and certainly and many in my family go frequently, I think the main reason priests are being imported is that crazy celibacy rules have led to an extreme shortage of priests. I remember vividly a tv interview with the Bishop of Houston who said they would import priests from Bangladesh and other areas where there were plentiful iif Americans didn't like the celibate life style. Priest decry the materialism of the western society, which quite frankly seems to be embraced enthuisastically by many US congregations, both Catholic and evangelical. I don't think that is a common reason why clergy come here. I think it is more a question of economics and supply and demand of clergy. I'll agree with you that Africa and Latin American clergy are more conservative with respect to gay rights and feminiism. I thik this reflects prevailing cultural values in these societies.
glynch is right - the reason why there are increasing foreign Catholic priests here is largely due to the shortage of American priests (outsourcing!)
yeah...i was talking about theological issues, mostly. not political ones. but wasn't the current Pope pretty outspoken against the war in Iraq for that very reason?
Max, since when is killing and war not been a theological issue? 10 commandments. Isn't this a theological issue? Are you using "theological" in some sort of specific way?
Do you think that if priest had children they would grow up to be priests? I don't. (Priests are going to have to get their progeny just like all the other gay caballero's...recruitment )
'Field wide open' for next leader of Catholic Church By Cathy Lynn Grossman and Rick Hampson, USA TODAY To Catholics, the pope walks in the shoes of the fisherman - Saint Peter, the first head of the church. But who can fill the shoes of John Paul II, hailed just hours after his death as "John Paul the Great?" There is no clear front-runner to succeed the man who died Saturday after 26 years as leader of a worldwide religion whose arcane election traditions date to the 12th century and earlier. (Related graphic: How the pope is elected) For 455 years before Karol Wojtyla's election, the pope was Italian. But now, "the field is wide open," says the Rev. Thomas Reese, editor of the Jesuit magazine America. When 117 cardinals assemble in two or three weeks to choose a new pope, "nationality and race will mean nothing," papal biographer George Weigel says. Those who were stunned in 1978 by the selection of a Polish pope should be prepared for a black pope or a brown one; for a pope who pilots a plane or rides mass transit; for a pope from Sao Paulo or Bombay. Or Honduras. When Cardinal Oscar Andrés Rodríguez Maradiaga of Tegucigalpa appears before Hispanic audiences, they chant, "John Paul III! John Paul III!" For the first time in centuries, Catholics around the world dare to hope for their native sons. Sitting in the shade of a mango tree at a guesthouse for missionaries in Nairobi, the Rev. Peter Dada of Sudan dreamed of an African pope. "The influence of Africa in the church today is great," he says. "So the question has to be, 'Can an African bishop succeed John Paul II?' And the answer must be yes." Everywhere there was speculation, among the devout and the not-so-devout. In Ireland, Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi of Milan has long been listed as favorite in an online betting poll. People wonder whether the next pope will be "fat or thin, young or old, multilingual, widely-published, well-known," says Greg Erlandson, president of the publishing company, Our Sunday Visitor. This week, Rome is awash with lists of papabili- Italian for likely papal candidates. They include cardinals who have been papabili for a decade, such as Francis Arinze of Nigeria and Angelo Sodano, the Vatican secretary of state, who called the late pope "John Paul the Great." The best known cardinal is a long shot: Joseph Ratzinger of Germany, who has inspired conservatives and irritated liberals as head of the Vatican department that polices the teaching of Catholic doctrine. There is nothing this side of the Renaissance like the election of a pope. The deliberating and balloting are conducted in secrecy enforced by threat of excommunication. The results are announced by a puff of white smoke and a few words in Latin. Campaigning is discouraged. A 60-year-old may be too young. The cardinals under age 80 - those eligible to vote - will gather as soon as 15 days but no more than 20 days after the pope's death. They vote in the Sistine Chapel, under Michelangelo's famous ceiling. To be elected, a candidate must receive two-thirds plus one of the votes. But John Paul, who picked all but three of the cardinals who will choose his successor, approved a rule that would allow a pope to be elected by a simple majority in case of an eventual deadlock. The cardinals can elect any male Roman Catholic, although no non-cardinal has been elected since 1378. A papal election does not necessarily begin with the focus on specific candidates. The cardinals tend to look first at what the times demand and then think about who can best meet the challenge. Qualifications Some qualifications seem evident, according to interviews with several Vatican watchers, including Reese, John Allen of the National Catholic Reporter and Russell Shaw, former spokesman for the U.S. Catholic bishops. • He must be in excellent health to counteract the recent image of a frail, nearly incapacitated pope. Moreover, the last pope's own predecessor, Pope John Paul I, died after only 33 days in office. That would seem to favor Christoph Schönborn of Vienna, 60, and hurt the chances of Godfried Danneels, 71, of Belgium, who suffered a heart attack in 1997. • He must have charisma - not necessarily as much as John Paul II, but enough to hold the world stage that the last pope made his own. The voting cardinals probably will seek someone with "a winning personality," Reese says. "It can be very different than John Paul's, but it must be one that could win the imagination of the whole world." Dionigi Tettamanzi of Milan, outgoing and jovial, reminds some of Angelo Roncalli, who became the beloved Pope John XXIII. By comparison, Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Buenos Aires - humble, austere, soft-spoken - is a shrinking violet. • He must be well-known to other cardinals. Prelates who are from smaller cities, or don't work in Rome or don't travel much, can't make the contacts usually needed to win a papal election. On this score, Arinze shines. He travels frequently to America, among other places, and is a particular favorite at Catholic Family Land, a retreat in Ohio. He has been around the Vatican so long that he is known to almost every cardinal. • He must be willing to travel. Again, Arinze stands out. And Dario Castrillón Hoyos, 75, a Colombian who has held various Vatican positions, is a world traveler, but Bergoglio seems to prefer to stick closer to home, and Tettamanzi hasn't traveled as much as many of his peers. • He must speak many languages. Rodríguez of Honduras is fluent in seven languages; Ivan Dias of Mumbai (Bombay) speaks 17. • He must not seem too ambitious or eager for office. Ratzinger has indicated a desire to retire, and at 77 he has already had a long, distinguished and powerful career. Tettamanzi, conversely, may have pushed a bit aggressively to be named archbishop of Milan. • He must not be an American, given the United States' status as the world's superpower. If the cardinals were to elect one, Reese says, "half the world would think the CIA fixed the election, or that Wall Street bought it." The fact that Cardinal Francis George of Chicago is an American, for example, actually hurts his chances to become pope. George himself has said choosing someone from the world's superpower "would not be helpful to the mission of the church." But Shaw, now a columnist for Our Sunday Visitor, says George still may have an important role: as one of the influential cardinals nicknamed "grand electors" who, working like party whips in Congress, quietly build coalitions that can elect a pope. Questions Beyond these criteria, Vatican watchers Reese, Allen, Shaw and others raise some of the tough questions the cardinals will probably have to answer before they select the next pope: • Should he be Italian? Italy has 20 cardinals eligible to vote - the largest delegation from a single country. How badly do they want to reclaim the papacy? "If the Italians get their act together and back one candidate, they'll have the next pope. But if they are split among two or three candidates, then who knows," Reese says. The problem is several Italians are prime candidates, including the energetic Angelo Scola of Venice. But none appeals to everyone. • Should he be a caretaker pope? An older man with a shorter reign could give the church a breather after John Paul's long, eventful papacy. Or do the immediate challenges of the church require a younger, more vital man prepared to serve for decades? If a caretaker is desired, it could be Ratzinger. For a longer papacy, the cardinals might look to Schönborn, 60, or Rodríguez, 62. Caveat: The cardinals who met in 1958 to choose a successor to Pope Pius XII thought they were getting a caretaker in Pope John XXIII. Instead, they got a pope who convened the Second Vatican Council, which revolutionized Catholic practices and doctrine in the early 1960s. • Should the papacy continue to focus as intensely on sexual morality, or pay more attention to other issues, such as poverty, economic and social justice, the environment or the challenge of Islam? All are high on the agenda of the developing world, Reese says. "Third World cardinals want attention to the starving, the unemployed, the people getting the short end of the stick on globalization," Reese says. "The developed nations want someone strong on ecumenism, who can continue the dialogue John Paul started with Protestants and Jews." • Should there be a shift in how the church is governed, away from the Vatican and more toward the dioceses and national bishops' conferences? Those who like strong Vatican control might favor Ratzinger or another Vatican insider, Giovanni Battista Re. • Where is it more important to promote the faith: in Western Europe, which is becoming known for its empty cathedrals, or in the Third World, where the church is growing fastest? "If they are saying, 'Where are there more Catholics than any place else,' then you look to Latin America," says Shaw. In that case, a likely candidate might be Cardinal Cláudio Hummes of Sao Paulo. • Who could best fight the problem of sexual abuse by priests? It's of particular concern in the United States, but does not rank as high in other parts of the world. In Vienna, Schönborn succeeded an archbishop who was forced from office by such a scandal. He got high marks for dealing sensitively with the aftermath. Scola of Venice has grappled with the related issue of the declining number of new priests. On the other hand, Rodríguez of Honduras raised some eyebrows when he defended Cardinal Bernard Law, who was forced out as archbishop of Boston by clergy sex scandals. Once the voting starts, the paper ballots will be sewn together and burned. Outside, the world will wait to see what comes up the chimney. Black smoke means no winner; white means a pope has been elected. Then a senior cardinal, Jorge Arturo Medina Estévez, the deacon of the College of Cardinals, will appear in a window of the basilica and announce to the world in Latin, Habemus papam- "We have a pope." Who will that be? Cardinal Philippe Barbarin of France, who gets to vote, said Sunday in a radio interview that he had a model in mind: "When you see his face, and when you hear him speak, you should have the impression like that made by the arrival of John Paul II. ... 'Wow, here you can see Christ come among us!' " http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...penfornextleaderofcatholicchurch&sid=84439559
ok, you win. i guess i meant theological issues within the church's control. not merely political commentary. of course the 10 commandments translates not to killing, but to murder. but i think we've all been through that here a ton, so let's not!
According to one of the Cardinals, there will only be a black pope if God has a "sense of humor". WTF???? I'm not sure many people could get away with saying that. http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050404/ap_on_re_af/african_pope_2 By DANIEL BALINT-KURTI, Associated Press Writer LAGOS, Nigeria - Many Africans think it's time for an African pope. They say having a black at the top would anchor the Roman Catholic Church among the world's poor — signaling that the Vatican aims to lead the fight against inequality and disease, offering a hope of salvation in this world as well as the next. And, they add, it would recognize that the church is gravitating away from the ailing parishes and empty pews of Europe to focus on vibrant congregations to the south. Cardinal Francis Arinze of Nigeria is among those mentioned most often around the Vatican as potential successors to John Paul II, although he is considered a long shot by most accounts, even among Africans. "It would show that God has a sense of humor to give the people a black pope, but are Westerners ready to accept that?" asked Cardinal Bernard Agre of Ivory Coast, one of Africa's 12 cardinals. The growing Catholic churches in Africa now number 135.6 million, which is nearly 17 percent of worldwide membership. While John Paul increased the number of African cardinals by only one, he greatly boosted their profile by calling several to the Vatican. Arinze, for example, was entrusted with mediating interfaith relations — one of John Paul's favorite projects. "John Paul strengthened Africa's role in the church," said Mario Aguilar, dean of divinity at St. Andrew's University in Scotland. "John Paul gave the tools to the African churches to become more central to the church." Aguilar thinks that has increased the chances of seeing an African pope, but many in Africa are skeptical that time has come. "I doubt that the white man will allow a black man to become pope," said Chinyere Osigwe, a 40-year-old Nigerian Osigwe, a mother of four children, would like to see the papacy go to Arinze. Arinze, 72, shares John Paul's conservative views on abortion, contraception and homosexuality — which tend to play well in Africa. Nigerians also remember Arinze's work during the Biafra civil war in the late 1960s and early '70s, when missionary schools in the young archbishop's domain were transformed overnight into camps filled with starving refugees. The church's influence in Africa goes beyond its congregations. Catholic schools educate millions, counting several current leaders among their alumni. Church-run hospitals and clinics serve far more people than the Catholic population. Catholic charities make the church known even in villages without congregations. John Paul made 13 trips to Africa and underlined the continent's importance to Catholicism by calling last year for a second synod of African bishops, years before one was due. Such a meeting is needed because of the rapid changes in African Catholicism. According to the U.S. Catholic News Service, half of Africa's 426 active Catholic bishops have been named since the 1994 synod and the continent's Catholic population has increased 30 percent over a decade as has the number of priests and seminarians. When the pope made his first visit in 1980, many African countries suffered under Marxist regimes that persecuted Catholics or were fettered by military and civilian dictatorships. Zimbabwe had just become independent, but South Africa and Namibia remained under white rule. Democracy spread in the 1990s, although in places that let loose tribal and ethnic rivalries blew up into civil wars and regional conflicts. Many African think a leader like Arinze — with his work helping to ease discord between religions — would have a chance at inspiring democracy in a similar way that John Paul contributed to the fall of communism in eastern Europe. Former Anglican Archbishop Desmond Tutu, a Nobel Peace Prize winner, praised John Paul for speaking out against the evils of apartheid and seeking to unite humanity. He also called for the next pope to be African. "We hope that perhaps the cardinals when they meet will follow the first non-Italian pope by electing the first African pope," Tutu said from Cape Town, South Africa. But Archbishop of Dakar Theodore Adrien Sarr doesn't think the cardinals will. "An African pope? Sooner or later we will see it, but this time around, I don't think the time has come," he said.
Just to give a hint of how possible a black pope might be, and more to the point, how dense the Catholic hierarchy still is, there wasn't one black dignitary carrying the Pope's body through St. Peter's Square today. With a dozen pall bearers, not one was black. I was surprised, to tell you the truth. Moments like these are highly symbolic. The ruling oligarchy of the Church missed a golden opportunity to show how their outlook towards a huge part of humanity has changed. In my opinion. Keep D&D Civil!!
Maybe those 12 pall bearers were chosen based on seniority. Who cares what race they were? Why should people interpret a black pall bearer as changing the entire outlook of a church? Does the Catholic church have a history of not being friendly to blacks? The church has grown significantly in Africa in recent years, from what I've read.
Though it was interesting that S. America showing amazing leadership in catholic world. Numbers were staggering. And mostly due to John Paul. Interesting.
Why do Popes, nuns, etc. have to change their names? Is it really like in Eurotrip, do they ring bells when the Pope passes and puff out white smoke when another is selected?
Go back and read my post again. If you don't get it, then you just don't get it. There are about 136 million black Catholics in Africa now, with that continent being one of the fastest growing areas of Catholicism. Heck, Texx, your last sentence is why they should have had a black pallbearer. And can you think of any organization more into symbolism than the Catholic Church? Good Grief! I totally stand by what I posted.
They vote at least a couple of times a day once they convene. After each vote they burn the ballots. If they do not decide on a Pope, then they add something to the burning ballots to ensure black smoke. When they do elect the Pope, they add something to the burning ballots to ensure white smoke.
