Could Motiejunas and Jones both move out of the rotation?

Look,

as long as they are Rockets I like them.

There's only 2 Rockets players I didn't like. And I actually liked them off-the-court. But on-court I despised their games. That is Rafer Alston and Juwan Howard.

You think just because Asik is demanding a trade and has been parked that I am wrong about Jones/DMo. I have made very clear over and over how I feel about them. They need major minutes. They need to develop. This is not a develoopmental situation. With Asik benched we have to play someone. It's not like either guy went out and won the job. They did not. They were handed a golden opportunity in training camp and neither guy did diddly.

I don't care about being wrong. I've been wrong before. ..... and .... so have you. It's not about that. it's about what makes this team a championship team. We won't win a championship this year with TJones/DMo batting down the 4 spot. Won't happen. It may take a few games but their cracks will show soon enough. Once teams start funneling the ball to them out high...you'll see. Both guys will convolute our offensive scheme with Harden/Dwight on the floor. They're simply not the fit for Harden/Dwight.

It's nothing personal. It's nothing against their games. But you can't look at one game in isolation and say we've found the answer. You have to be realistic. Neither guy can shoot effectively from the outside. And DMo's best value is in the low block. That means DMo is most effective offensively with Dwight on the bench. Which means we're back to last year with our defense giving up major points as soon as Dwight is out of there because DMo is simply not a presence defensively in the paint. TJones is showing some defensive scramble ability. He's probably our backup 5 defensively since Asik is apparently parked. But he's not the answer at the 5.

Yes, we do "need" them right now. That is true. And as such I cheer for them and want them to do well. But if you think we're going to the Finals with DMo/TJones as our rotation bigs alongside Dwight....then I think you are very mistaken.

 

U ready to eat crow?

 

No. But he is looking good this game. I'll give him that. If you want me to eat crow Jones is going to have to string together about a month's worth of games and show that he can at least be adequate from the outside shooting the ball. This is one game. It's the Celtics. We're at home. We're rolling. He is contributing positively on both ends. I'll give him that. But I'm not sold that he's the answer, no. And won't be unless he holds up around the league and performs against the better teams, etc.

 

Casspi could move out, he is the only person where the ball goes to die.

Too slow. Only able to really build speed going in straight lines provided enough runway.

Ever seen a C130 take off?

 

I don't have a problem with a lot of your analysis except when you said this is not a development situation. I disagreed then and now because it is a development situation with both and the rockets are in a good spot to do so.The rockets turnedx a center into a 3pt shooter and drafted a rookie pg in 92 and 93. They gave horry the spot and made sam who was a terrible practice player beat out brooks. Both situations guys were developed. Those teams were way closer to competing than this current edition.

 

Yeah..we'll just have to disagree for now. I think we're trying to win a ring this year and as such Morey will give away youngsters in favor of guys ready to help us go to the next level. Just the way I see it.

 

Yep,just like they were trying to win in 06 despite having a terrible record in 05. The spurs could've played antonio daniels vs parker in 01. If a young has talent and we can agree jones is loaded with talent,you develop that talent.

Do the rockets think they're title contender? I'm sure they do,but that doesn't mean you can't develop talent. Its easy to look at history and see its good to develop young talent. The lakers traded all star norm nixon for a the rights to byron scott. The lakers also traded a good center divac for kobe the high scholer. Now I'm not saying jones will turn this way,but I think he has the talent to be like josh smith-lamar odom type of guy who can be vital to a championship team. That hybrid type who is big,quick,strong,and athletic in this era is vital.

 

maybe we are a top 5 and maybe we aint but developing a major talent would be a sure thing for years to come.
looking forward to your take on this

 

You can develop talent but they have to be comers and they have to develop in dleague. That was last year with DMO/TJones. This year it's time for them to produce. They went through the whole training camp doing basically nothing.

Now we're seeing a little spurt from TJones. I say a little spurt because it's just a couple games. He looked great last night. But you have to keep it in perspective. Will he look great in a month...when other teams are scouting us...and they are fading off Jones, not letting him have the dribble drive and forcing him to shoot the long ball or swing the ball?? What happens when he's got to fire up a bunch of 3's in a game? What happens then?? Does he nail them down or clank a pile of them? Does he start clanking free throws or does he knock them down at 70% or more? Does our offense stagnate when he's out there?? Or does he continue to find ways to help us and open up the floor for Dwight and James when teams discover the weaknesses to his game and don't close out on him on the perimeter??? Does he maintain defensive intensity and continue to scramble after he's been out there for awhile or does he mellow out to defensive mediocrity? What happens when we play Memphis and they are running Marc and ZBo out there? What about the Clippers? How will he match up against actual good teams that are competing for the same thing we are?

Those are all questions that have been answered in the negative up to this point. Perhaps...perhaps the worm is turning and Jones is becoming a plus out there. This is a change from what he has been in the past, even the most recent past, so we'll have to wait and see if it's real or if it was just circumstantial.

If it is real it will continue and then all the urgency to flip Asik is off. We can just sit and wait. Hopefully that is the scenario. Because I still believe in Asik and I still believe that our team is ideal with one of Dwight/Asik on the floor at all times. And I don't want to trade Asik unless the trade favors us. And if TJones does become the 4 we've been looking for then we can look at other positions to shore up or to upgrade to superstar status with Asik.

But the bottom line concerning player develoopment is that this team is competing for a championship. There is very, very little room for rookie development the way that DMo/TJones need. IF...and that's still a big IF....TJones is developing at this very moment into the guy we need and he can continue to maintain 30 minutes in our starting lineup..THEN that pretty much seals off DMo's opportunities for serious floor minutes. It pretty much relegates DMo to mop-up status going forward. And DMo really does need to be on the floor. So....I'm still where I was at the beginning of the season. I sincerely believe that at least 1 and possibly 2 of DMo/TJones/GSmith will be traded by the trade deadline. We simply don't have the minutes to give all those guys. And they need to be playing somewhere.

 

I'm confused here.... does it NOT look like Jones at least is ready to contribute or am I just blind & taking crazy pills??

Look I'm sure the 07 Celtics would have played a more established PG like Chauncey Billups during their title run if they had one available to them, but they didn't and Rondo still contributed and was a big part of that team winning it all... even though he was far from a finished player.

Same goes with the 90's Rockets teams and Cassell/Horry as others have mentioned. The team would have rather played Sean Elliott instead of Horry, and it was obvious because they tried to trade for him, and it didn't work out.

Same goes with the Rockets and Jones/D-Mo. I'm sure they would rather have LaMarcus Aldridge, or Kevin Love, but the fact is, they aren't available. We are in a place now where just like the Celtics had to lean on Rondo, and just like the 90's Rockets had to lean on Horry, the Rockets might very well be stuck having to lean on Jones & D-Mo for big contributions this year.

Why is that so hard for people to swallow. They are IN the rotation now contributing and its still only November, and they are already helping the team out tremendously..... Especially Jones who looks like the Jones we saw at Kentucky only better, and much more disciplined. Face the facts and admit that you were wrong.

 

Looks can be very deceiving.

Let's keep the dialogue going here as we progress through games. How do you guys feel after last night? Jones was efficient enough offensively. But he had 2 boards, we got out rebounded as a team, and an aging gimpy Dirk torched us. What is your evaluation of Jones after last night? Remember to frame this in light of Jones contributing to a team effort to contend for a championship, not in light of his own personal improvement.

As a team we were woefully lacking defensively. Dallas got 2 super quick guards on the floor against us. Harden ..... he couldn't defend Ellis if he had wings and could fly and hover above the court. Jones??? How much responsibility does he take for Dirk ripping us? No excuses please. We all know he's young and needs to "develop". But if this were game 1 of a playoff series.....which we're gonna be in hopefully here in about 6 months...then we'd have to be figuring out a counter to Dirk/Ellis. Could Jones come up with a counter? Would he be a part of a counter if game 2 of the playoffs was tomorrow night back in Dallas again? Is any of last night's debacle on him? Or is Casspi responsible for most all of Dirk's line?

 

Asik back Dmo to the bench and Rox lose, not surprised.

DD

 

He did his job. Ask Garcia and Lin where they were.
Back to back so I excuse taken.

 

So you pin the blame for Dirk and Ellis on Garcia and Lin? I missed the game and haven't watch the video yet. Just gandered at the box score for a sec. Looks like Garcia put in 10 minutes. Did Dirk score a disproportional amount of his points during that time and was Garcia matched up against him? Just looking at the box it would seem to me that Jones and Casspi would have been the primary defenders on Dirk for most of the game. But like I said, I haven't watched the video yet. Are you saying we had Garcia on Dirk for 10 minutes and Dirk went off against him?

 

For that win you only need to score one or two points more than the Mavs.
Garcia and Lin producing more would have sealed it

 

There are a million different ways we could have won the game. This thread is about TJones/DMo's effectiveness and value as rotation pieces. So in regards to last night's game...what culpability does TJones have in that defeat? Was he effective defending and neutralizing Dirk when he was on Dirk? What happened to his rebounding? 2 boards in 30 some minutes? What happened there?

My questions and comments here aren't to try to dog out Jones and prove some point that he shouldn't be in the rotation because of last night's game. But it does speak towards the idea that over a longer stretch of games, against better competition than the Boston Celtics of Tuesday night that Jones has to prove that he's a difference maker and not a liability in the rotation. Before I view the video and form my own opinion on last night's game it would be interesting to read the comments from posters who think Jones is our guy at the 4. I'm not talking about posters who think that Jones is the best we got. I'm talking about posters who think that Jones is the guy we should have at the 4 going forward and we shouldn't make a trade for another 4.

 

Jones is not the main problem. You are just his doubter.
The 4 is not the biggest problem any more.
The reason the team is still struggling in close games and giving up leads runs deeper than one player who played well not great but was among the best in that +- column.

This team has to learn to move the ball and outscore the opponent until they get used to each other and can help each other on Defense night in night out.
Until then the best hope is to outscore the opponent in the end.
Stable Offense and then stable defense.

Dirk and Ellis are always going to torch the Rockets. They have been doing that since the Yao and Tmac Era and that is saying a lot.

 

Terrence can start and he can come off the bench much like Lin.
If posters think he is the best at the 4 at this moment than so be it.
He is versatile to play both. A major role or a small role.

 

First off, I think this is a fair question.

Secondly... I think its unfair to ask ANY traditional PF to guard Dirk 1 on 1. IMO, McHale should have trusted Jones enough to switch with Howard at least some of the time so Howard could play Dirk 1 on 1. However, if I'm McHale I'm wondering how Howard would guard Dirk in the high pick and pop, and have my doubts that his second nature would be to sag in the paint for protecting against the drive. Still... I think its something I personally would have tried if I was McHale... traditional PF's just aren't going to have the kind of length needed to even phase Dirk's shot.

So, if we all agree its fair.... Lets just establish right off the bat that Dirk is anomaly that your coach needs to gameplan for.

-As far as Jones' defense over the course of the past 5 games.... its looks night and day better than it did last year. He still gets a little confused sometimes in the rotations, but its nothing compared to what it was last year. And his rebounding and shot blocking has been very good. Scoring in the paint against the Rockets with Howard and Jones in the paint will continue to be difficult.

Where this team continues to get beat is guarding the perimeter, rotating out to shooters, and closing out on shooters. You have two very good shot blockers in the paint, and one of them is a multiple defensive player of the year... why in the world our perimeter players are not closing shooters and making them try and make a play towards the bucket is beyond me. That comes down to coaching and accountability, effort, and mentally preparedness.

Is Jones the single culprit here.... hell no. Is his defense perfect right now.... absolutely not. He's giving you about the same effort and impact as a regular starting caliber PF would. Some things he does better than others (shot blocking, 2nd chance rebounds), and some things he does worse(mental lapses & experience in guarding stars 1 on 1). You are probably getting the same defensive production from him that you'd be getting from most PF's in the league IMO when its all said and done. He's the least of my worries defensively.

 

Parsons proved he is a very effective Dirk defender IMO