Could Duncan be just as good or better than the dream

hmmm, i'm not so sure you can just dismiss McHale like that. Without Bird, he would have been pushing leading scorer in the league. With Bird, he won 3 rings, and was part of one of the best teams ever.

even with Bird, he posted huge numbers at very high FG%. Do you realize he shot over 60% twice? Jabbar only did that once.

McHale was an unstoppable scorer, and very good defender; Duncan cannot score like that, yet, imso. This isn't just about who surrounded them. My opinion is based on McHale burning double teams as well as single coverage. Duncan tends to passively pass out of doubles, until that last game.

btw: comparing numbers, Duncan vs Hakeem is a joke. Would someone please post Hakeem's 1986-1996 numbers. I don't think Duncan's stats to date beat any of those years. And then when you look at playoff stats, it is even more of a joke.

Hell, why aren't Spurs fans just comparing Duncan to Robinson...is that because y'all already give up that Robinson is not better than Hakeem.

 

He's not that far from Dream...

Offensively, Duncan is light years ahead of Olajuwon. Mainly because of his ability to face up and drive to the hoop.

Defensively, he's not near the defender Olajuwon was.

 

Duncan has superior court awareness and patience than Dream had...is probably a smarter player overall. He certainly exhibits better 'fundamentals' than Hakeem did at a similar age, but Hekeem's development was amazing.

Hakeem was a much better athlete, better offensively, defensively, on the boards, and they both had/have amazing hands for big men. That has always been what impresses me most with Big Fndamentals, his hands. That I can even compare him with Hakeem is an incredible testament, IMO.


Hakeem was a much better individual player...and eventually the Rockets learned how to best use those individual talents in a team concept. I would take Hakeem over Duncan any day of the week if you offered me a young version of either straight up, to build my team around...


....but, I suspect that Duncan would have been a better part of a puzzle of other stars. For example, Hakeem never really meshed well with Barkley and Drexler/Pippen, as his game was predicated on individual dominance. I think that Duncan would have made that team a better one than hakeem did.

 

Not when you're a true center pretending to play PF. Kelvin freaking Cato is a much tougher defender for Duncan than Chris Webber or Dirk Nowisitski.

It's about perception too. When he calls himself a PF, he's massive for his position, when he calls himself a C, he's isnt. Like I said, grow some. It's not like Hakeem was seven six.

 

Exactly what I was about to write. Sure stats and awards gain players a legendary status, but to judge true talent you have to actually see that player, in their prime, play. Hakeem had much more talent than Duncan does right now, but Duncan uses a more fundamental game. It really depends on how you want to look at their abilities.

 

Hang on...the position you play limits who you guard, not really who guards you. That is really up to the determination of the other team...unless you're a Nowitzki type who spends his time out around the 3-pt line, the defense can decide whether to defend a pf or a c with a pf or a c...as the Lakers did when they put Shaq on Duncan. There are plays you can run to set up specific assignments or mismatches, but that's extremely limited.

Duncan's 'decision' to play pf is really only about who he guards. And I have yet to hear anyone propose how and why the decision was Duncan's...It would have made more sense to move a perennial MVP candidate at C away from his position so Duncan could prove he had balls?

 

You really believe that? Aside from seeing Dream face up Ewing, beat him with a crossover, and then nail the pull-up jumper, Hakeem demanded a double team. And even then, unless it was a quick, hard double, Olajuwon was going to score.

His quickness and footwork were amazing. Never mind about the "for a big guy" qualifier.

I'd have to guess you're younger than me, you wouldn't say Duncan is " light years ahead of Olajuwon" offensively if you had seen much of Dream.

 

HeyP, are you saying McHale was better than Barkley?

 

As good as McHale was he never was the go-to guy on his team. Granted he was a great player whose long arms made him a force on offense and defence but he never had to make the tough shots. That was Bird's job, and Bird was very good at it.
So IMO Duncan is in an elite class, maybe not the upper class of MJ & Wilt but he is a v ery nice player who showed me last night that he could challenge Shaq.
That was always my bigest problem with Duncan was he always hid behign Robinson to guard Shaq. Last night hedidn't take Shaq on D every time but he took it to Shaq.
Congrats to him, duncan is a class act.

 

This is apples and oranges until Duncan finally decides to play the position he should be playing which is center. I think you're better off comparing Duncan to PF's like Malone and Barkley than with Dream and Shaq...

Edit: Just read some of the comments about the PF argument. I think Duncan could possibly be at the same disadvantage Roy Jones Jr was at in boxing. He doesn't have anyone to really compare himself to. Dream had Robinson/Ewing/Young Shaq to beat up on. Duncan only has Shaq, and he doesn't really even face Shaq with Robinson.

 

Light years away!!!? youre kidding right?

Like someone posted before, did you ever see dream in the playoffs? I have a couple of tapes I can let you barrow...

 

Not sure I follow you. If you're talking about who defends Duncan and saying that Cato can defend Duncan better than Webber or Nowitski then that's not Duncan's choice it's the opposing coaches choice. If Rudy thinks he can stop Duncan with Cato then Rudy should put Cato on him. On the other hand if you're saying that Cato would give Duncan fits offensively, I'm not sure Cato gives that many big men fits including Duncan. I'd say Webber is a heck of a lot tougher cover, low or high post.

I won't enter into who's better Duncan or Hakeem. Wait till Duncan's career is over and then it can be argued over a couple of beers. Complicating the picture is the fact that it's likely that now Duncan will be surrounded by more talent than Hakeem had for most of his career. Hakeem was a helluva player though, one of my favorite, maybe the favorite, big men to watch play.

 

You know I love the Celtics...I just have a problem with the 60s Cetlics having 8 HOFers and all of them getting too much credit when Russell, Cousy and Red should get most of it and the whole dynasty should be measured by less teams and Red's magic.

basically, Bob* , I just refuse to limit Bird's teams based on less rings than Bill's 8 HOFer teams. And in connection with that, I must (and you must) recognize that the Philly '83 team and the Laker's teams were on a different level than anything 15 years prior to them.

If you believe that, the Hakeem slamming the Lakers in 1986 and taking the best Bird team ever to 6 games surpassed what Duncan did in the * year.

and to answer your question....Barkley is not prototypically describably...I love him...but Mchale and Malone are the prototype PFs that Duncan should be measured against. Measuring Duncan again Hakeem is a joke.

And measuring Duncan to Hakeem without including Robinson just proves that SA fans are now convinced that Robinson sucks vs Hakeem, so now they want to measure their new best to him.

SA fans are pitiful in their attempt to downplay the incredible playoff record of Hakeem.

Bob*...don't you agree?

 

At similar age, Duncan is much more polished than Olajuwon. Olajuwon didn't have much of a jumper until he was around 30. Olajuwon was rarely ever able to drive to the hoop facing up.

 

Hakeem would torch Duncan the way he did D-Rob in the 95 WCF in a one on one match-up.

He was too quick and too good for then MVP D-Rob to contain one on one. What chances does Duncan have?

And I consider the D-Rob of the early 90's a far better defensive player than Duncan is today.

Besides no individual player has put the clamps on Hakeem only the Sonics' swarming defense has done it.

 

Alot of fans here are too young to see or remember Dream during 86 WCF in his second year in the league. The guy scored 40 points on double teams against the defending champions and Kareem. Yes Dream could only dunk back then but no one could stop him including Kareem and whoever was sent to help him.

The difference offensively between Dream and Duncan is that Dream could score even on a double team and Duncan can't and won't.

 

For the 32098324039248th time I know Olajuwon was way quicker than Duncan, or any big man for that matter.

What I was saying is that Duncan is way polished than Olajuwon was at similar ages.

I didn't say that Duncan was BETTER. Olajuwon's superior athletcism would probably make him better than Duncan. However, Duncan has no real weakness offensively. Perhaps he could improve on his passing skills. Duncan had much better ball handling and shooting skills than Dream did at age 26.

 

Funny, I remember him pulling back a bit to face up, dribble, and drive (usually throwing in spin moves, fakes, etc.). So, yes he was able to drive facing up. I don't remember him ever driving the center and ending with a finger roll like Duncan does every now and then, but he certainly did other things.

I don't think they are close (Dream way ahead), but I think Duncan at his fullest potential would be very different than Hakeem anyway and, thus, hard to compare.

Raven,

Following up hp, don't forget the late 80s playoffs when Dream would throw up ~40 ppg and the Rockets would still lose in the first round. Duncan has never really been a dominant scorer like that in a series, or in a season.

 

I would take a player with less stats who can get his teammates involved and win than a guy putting up big stats and losing.

Oops that sounds like our current Rockets.