Alan Henderson, Allen Iverson, Jamal Mashburn, and Paul Pierce all have more than 66 as well, but your point is a good one. ------------------ -------------- Did you know? Derrick Chievous sucked. It's true. -- from the ClutchCity.net "Did You Know" sidebar
I agree completely with DoD. Launch Pad, if he starts hitting his fade away at a clip equal to Kobe, I'd give him 6 more shots per game. That produces 3 made and the accompanying foul shots puts him at 7-8 points more per game. Then he is scoring 25ppg and is "ridiculous". 47-48% can definitely add more points than your linear math shows.
heypartner, I'm not exactly sure of the point that you're making. I agree with DoD that it would be great to see Cat nailing 50+ % of his shots, but was merely illustrating that there is nothing magical about the difference between 43% and 45% that would automatically make me call for a player to shoot more. If you give someone that is shooting 43% 6 more shots per game (as in your Kobe comparison), whose game depends heavily on driving, he will make 2 or 3 of them every game (statistically, 2.5), and will get to the line more often than someone shooting fadeaways, so he'll still get the same extra 7-8 ppg that you crave. If you'd like to make Kobe comparisons, I would just be happy if Cuttino ultimately picks up the court sense that Kobe demonstrated last year. Kobe used to be the Bermuda Triangle of basketball players (passes would fly in, but never come back out), but ultimately, he began to realize that there were potentially 4 other guys on the court that could put the ball in the hole. If Cat can learn that he doesn't always have to shoot in the face of a defender, then his fg% will increase, as will his apg average. I am and always will be a proponent of taking the open shot, if it's in your shooting range. Rather than say, "Cat, I expect you to shoot x number of times today", I would say "Cat, if you're open, or can burn your man and get open, then shoot. If someone comes to play help defense, then get the ball to the open man and let them shoot." ------------------ [This message has been edited by Launch Pad (edited November 19, 2000).]
the linear progressions don't fly with me. I'm just saying if he hits the fadeaway or turnaround like Kobe, that will show up only slightly in his %, and move him to around 47%-48%. We agree there. But, if he hits that shot, that is very difficult to do, and it makes a huge difference in how I would use him as a coach. I think he passes just fine for a shooting guard. I don't see this noticeable difference between passing ability of star/superstar SHOOTING guards and Cuttino. Cuttino just can't shoot the fadeaway like a superstar SHOOTING guard and overwhelm opponents on size and leaping ability. IMO, Cuttino's biggest problem is not passing. It is he doesn't have a turnaround J, yet.
heypartner, Ah sooooo I see the fundamental difference in our thinking now. It comes down to this. I don't feel Cat is, or ever will be, a superstar. He is a good scorer, and may reach star status if he can achieve the proper discipline, but I don't believe that he will be a superstar (I hope I'm wrong). I think passing is important, because Cat needs to achieve a team mentality even if it is shoot first, pass second. I believe in players that are true triple threats: shoot, pass, or drive. If you don't have an open shot, find someone who does. As for new moves, I think a fadeaway would help his game, but I'd really much rather see him add a Cassell-esque stop-and-pop 12-15 footer to his repertoire. I used to love to watch Sam blow by his man, take it hard into the lane, and when help D would try to back-peddle to get in front of him, he'd abruptly stop around the free-throw line and nail the short jumper (usually while the defense was still backing off of him). That's one of those lost moves like the floater and finger-roll that could take a player's game to the next level, but most people just don't bother with anymore. ------------------
Heypartner: Is Francis, then, not capable of putting up shots when the offense isn't fluid? I agree with you 100% on your analysis as far as it concerns guys like Anderson, Hakeem, and Walt... but if the team needs to score, it should be Francis, not Mobley, shouldering the brunt of the load. I haven't been able to watch any games (Thank God for the holidays), so I don't know if what is happening on court substantiates this argument... but I thought I'd throw it out there. ------------------ Shandon Anderson rocks. The lottery sucks. Playoffs 2001.
Launch Pad, Really, you'd take a stop-n-pop (or floater) before a fadeaway. My feelings are that fadeaways can beat double teams, stop-n-pops don't help you beat double teams. I'd go so far to say they can't be done against a double team. haven... I was just exaggeration-dueling with Dreamshake. Disregard any perceived reasoning or lack thereof. <font size="1"><font color="> [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited November 20, 2000).]
Let's put it another way... a person shooting 43% doesn't deserve more shots (in most cases). If the person gradually increases to 45% and approaches 50%, you give him more shots. That's where I meant by if you're shooting 43%, you're hurting your team by taking more shots. The "linear math" I think HeyPee and I are referring to is the fact that you're assuming "all things constant". I'm not. If I see someone's FG% increasing, I'm going to give/let him take more shots. Statistically you are correct, but "realistically" we're not seeing eye-to-eye. ------------------ -------------- Did you know? Derrick Chievous sucked. It's true. -- from the ClutchCity.net "Did You Know" sidebar
Yeah, I love the stop-and-pop shot. It requires beating your own man off the dribble, so you blow off one defender, and then making the help defender back-peddle away from your shooting spot trying to stop the lay-up, therefore leaving you wide open. In essence, you toast 2 defenders and still get the open jumper. It will work well against double teams, if they double at the perimeter. Then you can split the double team off the dribble and take the shot with them behind you. The fadeway works better against double teams in the lane, but like I said before, if you get double teamed, that means there is an open man somewhere on the court and you probably should pass. DoD, I understand where you are coming from, but I guarantee that Cat's fg% would be a lot better if he just had a better shot selection. When he forces a shot with a defender in his face, he is more likely to miss; ergo, his overall fg% becomes lower. Now, here's where the logic begins to get circular. If he doesn't take as many stupid shots, his fg% should increase (e.g. by passing up 3 of his token bone-headed shots attempts per game, his fg% may go to 47%). By your logic, because he is now shooting 47% on 9 attempts per game, he should shoot more. So he starts forcing 3 more shots per game, and suddenly, he is back down to 43%. Now, he needs to shoot less. I am of the opinion that he should shoot smarter, not necessarily more or less. ------------------
launching pad, were did you get that quirky smiley face. Can I use that on your claim that you can split double teams and shoot stop-n-pops? It is a lot easier to just jump away and shoot, as the 2nd man is coming over. Of course, it is nice starting 15 feet away.
heyp, Here's a smiley for you to use as you please: With that said, I really wish I knew how to do Flash, so I could send a diagram right back at you. So let's visualize: The guard starts around 3 point land with the ball in an ISO situation. The double team comes at the 3 point line. Having "the quickest first step in the league" , he blows by his man and splits the double team. The opposing center or other weakside player leaves his man and enters the lane near the basket to hopefully stuff the lay-up attempt. Instead of taking it strong to the hole, the guard stops abruptly around the free-throw line and performs a quick jump-shot. The help defender is caught off guard and is still several feet away near the basket, leaving the shooter wide open. In this situation, you beat the 2 guys at the 3 point line and the help defender for a total of 3 guys. Now, let's assume that the help defender came to the free throw line instead of hanging back towards the basket. In this case, he has left his man wide open on the baseline for a quick pass from the guard and a wide open dunk. Now, as for the fadeaway, Cat would have to enter into a post-up game (unless you're talking about the wild Mad Max run around like a headless chicken and fadeaway out of bounds at the last possible second). He'd have to back his man into fadeaway shooting range (let's say 15 ft). Doing so, he would probably not draw a double team, because, let's face it, he's kind of short for a 2-guard. Also, unlike defending the stop-and-pop, his defenders would not be forced to keep running to defend him and therefore, wouldn't waste much energy on D. Now, if you want to argue that Cato or Mo need to develop a consistent fadeaway jumper (despite the potential for a drop in rebounding), I'm with you there. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Launch Pad (edited November 20, 2000).]
Sometimes the perception of being able to score makes a bigger impact than your ability to do it. Just a thought. Mobley is a weapon. The other teams regard him as a weapon. And That alone is a big difference in his game. We all have a weakness, but it's about who can hide that weakness the best. When you are scoring more you can hide them. You can wear out the defender. You can make your opponent lose focus. You can force the opposition to focus on you instead of Francis. Mobley gives you all that. It's the illusion that makes the impact. That's the intangible. That's the difference in Mobley's game. He's a factor because he's made himself appear to be a factor. It's a head game. Mobley is playing it to perfection. ------------------ humble, but hungry.
From the Houston Chronicle: Francis and Mobley each came from 1-of-6 starts to go 5-of-8 and 3-of-4 shots respectively. Francis had 20 points, nine rebounds and six assists. Mobley set up or scored 16 of the Rockets' last 19 points. "It shows," Mobley said of the turnaround, "we're starting to learn the game." ------------------ Rockets Season Ticket Holder [This message has been edited by cato13 (edited November 22, 2000).]
