Controversy erupts after undocumented immigrant waves Mexican flag at graduation

What's her excuse? Being raised here?

Name me one human who has the moral integrity to leave the country they were brought into illegally as a toddler after they were raised into adulthood with everything they know within the borders of the country they illegally reside in. Her not being a citizen has to do with U.S. policy rather than her 'gaming the system'.

At least she is more successful than 95% of U.S citizens by receiving an education from an elite public university even with the handicap of being an undocumented immigrant.

I have a problem telling other humans to do things i know I probably wouldn't do in their shoes. I doubt you have that moral integrity either. Very few humans do.

 

We are a nation of immigrants, and those immigrants have always flown their flags and celebrated their cultures. The main difference is that when the Italians and Germans and others were the primary immigrant cultures, (a) they were white and (b) we loved immigrants coming to the US.

So basically you created a whole bunch of assumptions about her thoughts and beliefs and then decided to b**** about how horrible a person she is for having them. That's some Donald Trump quality brilliance right there.

 

Does it bother you that the USA Capitol is named after a man that owned slaves, pulled their teeth and had them manufactured into his false teeth? Does it bother you that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, raped them and did not free many of them when he died? What about Monroe and Buchannan? Benjamin Franklin? John Jay? James Madison?

So tell me how you feel about having states, the Capitol, roads and holidays honoring these men.

As it is clearly a reminder of the fact that African Americans were slaves and it is disrespectful I am certain you believe it is wrong that America continues to honor or recognize these men.

It is almost as if, the entirety of US history and culture is ugly and stained by slavery, inequality, gender imbalance and many other inequities. No doubt it makes some feel better to not remember that Lincoln viewed slaves as sub human and flatly said slavery was not an unforgivable sin
.... or that Woodrow Wilson and both Roosevelts would not meet with or share company with African Americans.

As for the confederate flag being part of the flag of several states? I would change it, if for no reason other than it is the official state flag and clearly some people find it offensive. As for streets and schools and roads named after southern civil war figures? No, not unless the people in those states want them changed. We have many monuments and other like things named after bigots, thieves, liars and complicated people.

Does the name of the city of Houston offend you?

Our countries history is very complicated and too often boiled down to a simple good or bad narrative.

 

You are ignoring one thing.

Those men made significant contributions to this nation and their dealings with slavery was only one aspect of their lives.

The confederate flag was a flag raised by traitors who's sole purpose was to rebel against the United States because they dedicated too much of their economy on slave labor. There are no redeeming qualities of the Confederacy. Displaying the confederate flag is a direct insult to African Americans.

Why even have pride in the Confederacy in the first place. They fought to keep slavery and they got their asses handed to them. Why even flaunt it in the first place? It just doesn't make sense. There is more to Southern pride than the ****ing Confederacy.

 

Not what Leroy's post concerned. If you have an issue with the Confederacy because you view them as traitors and Washington, etc were not traitors; that is a difference I can respect. I would point out though, that to label the leaders and population of entire states as traitors is probably not going to fly in reality. The people living in many Southern states had relatives that fought for the Confederacy; and it is unlikely you will get them to call their own relatives or the state they live in, home to traitors. It just doesn't happen.

As far as Southern pride, I don't really view this as uniquely limited to the South, I don't think anyone is arguing it is the totality of Southern pride or culture. I know I don't feel that way. I don't even really view it as pride at all. To me, it is part of history, in the South. Just like Washington and others are part of history in a larger context.

As I said, I would vote to remove the rebel flag from official state flags. I certainly don't venerate or view the Confederacy as some great fighter for what is right. The South relied far more heavily upon slavery for financial reasons and the North didn't, and that is in large part why it broke upon the lines it did. Money and power were motives.

Still I am not going to single out streets, schools, etc named after Robert E Lee or Stonewall Jackson or John C Calhoun on the basis of slavery when we had leaders that commited genocide like Andrew Jackson or only 70 years ago wouldn't send a simple telegram to Jesse Owens, when even Adolf Hitler congratulated him in person.

The fabric of this nation is stained with racism, sexism and every other form of "ism" yet people like Jon Stuart point at a monument in rural Georgia as the problem, which undermines the reality, it goes a whole lot deeper.... Including into areas where those with a holier than thou attitude don't want to think about.

 

Large swaths of the population clinging to a notion that the Confederacy was an entity to be proud of is dangerous and PART of the problem. That is what Jon Stewart is stating. This same segment of the population also believe that their rights as White Americans are being supressed due to minorities taking over. Yes, this segment of the population is what is still perpetuating racism in this country.

 

You are taking some serious liberties concerning what people think or don't think. Concerning large segments of the population believing their rights as white Americans are being suppressed due to minorities taking over, that really isn't a confederacy issue or even a southern issue. Go into Southern Illinois, Ohio, Indiana and much of the Midwest and you will see a pervasive belief that either poor/rural whites are being passed by or that the government is favoring minorities. That is an entirely seperate issue. Hell, go into the Polish and Italian and Assyrian neighborhoods and ask them what their personal beliefs are concerning African Americans.

This goes way beyond confederacy monuments or the like. If you want to pigeonhole it as such, go ahead. You have taken this on a tangent anyway. With the wide spread proliferation of moving and constant influx of different cultures, the distinction of North and South is eroding, it will continue to disapear but the history of the nation and the bigotry will live on without a street named Robert E Lee.

 

In a time when dudes are women because they decide so and white women are black women because they say so, why can't illegals live where they want because they want to.

It's modern America. Just keep on doing you, nothing else matters.

 

America has never really loved first gen immigrants coming to the US. It's the gradual amnesia from their kids being more successful that the pride of "sending your poor and huddled masses" kicks in. The Irish and Italian immigration waves in the 1800s were proportionately as significant as the Mexican American waves in the 90s-2000's. There was similar backlash against that era's culture shock as well.

The whiteness factor kicks in against the amnesia as it's harder to forget skin tone compared to previous class standing, but it's still there.

I know some Mexican Americans who bristle at illegals just as many as I know who support their plight.

As a segue, there's an elitist attitude against accents that I also unknowingly had. Americanized accents at least signify heavy assimilation or a history of at least 2 generations.

I only realized this as I'm working in a country where it's common for people to know how to speak 3 languages.

 

People move here to try to have a better life, and usually they sacrifice much for a chance of a better life for their children. This is why so many of them take jobs no one want and work hard. They don't have it easy. They pay taxes and will never collect SSC or many other benefits. They are illegal because of laws, not because they are bad, because they want to cheat, but because of a desire to have a better life.

Remember who desire to have a better life in the 18th century?

Their children being grateful or whatever of their parent is a great thing. Waving a stupid flag might just be them expressing that.

 

If the confederate flag as part of state flags was actually about honoring the history I wouldn't mind it at all. It's one of the six flags for the amusement park.

But the confederate flag was only adopted as the state flag during the height of the civil rights movement and done as statement against civil rights, so it is highly offensive. The capitol wasn't named after George Washington to show an opposition to the civil rights of blacks. Not so with confederate state flags in SC and most other states that had them as part of their state flag. I believe in SC it wasn't the state flag until 1962.

 

I said I would support removing the Confederate flag from SC.

 

Everything that is illegal is illegal because of laws. That is the definition of illegal, against the law. Most people that break laws do so out of a desire to have a better life, be that by not paying taxes, by stealing, by killing someone bothersome, by ingesting pleasurable substances, etc.

 

He's pretty clearly alluding to the difference between acts that are malum in se vs. malum prohibitum. Surely your legal training allowed you to surmise this.

 

Yes of course you're right but this is where Sam raises an important point. I think even you would agree that a rigid enforcement and avocation of a law merely because it is a law isn't always a good thing.

As a society we strive to make laws fit the norms of society in what is acceptable and what is practically enforceable.

 

I was talking to my girlfriend who grew up in rural Minnesota about the concept of Southern Pride and why the Confederate flag matters. Having grown up in Texas I've met people who's families fought for the Confederacy and who carry the family member of the humiliation that was leveled upon the confederate states following reconstruction. In many ways this isn't different than Scottish Nationalism where the even though the Scots were defeated by the English hundreds of years ago they still continue to fly the flag of Scotland.

Ultimately the cause for the Civil War was slavery tribalism is still a strong force in humanity. Even though most Southerners will acknowledge slavery was wrong they still feel the tie to family history and in a time where identity is important I can understand that tie. My own feeling is that we can and still acknowledge that history without the official display of the Confederate Flag. It belongs in a museum rather than on the grounds of a statehouse.

 

Another issue to consider is whether our economy and society would be willing to put up with what would happen if we actually could seal the border and limited to immigration to what is now allowed. Immigrants, of all statuses, for the most part are coming here to work and businesses and individuals are more than happy to hire them. If that wasn't the case then this wouldn't be an issue.

 

The Confederate flag sucks.

Showing the Mexican flag when you are celebrating an American achievement is not anywhere as bad, but also dumb. She can wave the Mexican flag all she wants, but at least do it at appropriate times.

 

I'm confused now, I thought Scotland became a part of UK because of the 1707 Treaty of Union passed by the Scottish parliament not because the English army invaded & conquered Scotland. The flag of Scotland is an active official flag that's used in most if not all Scottish government buildings, while on the other hand the Confederate flag is the flag of an non-existent entity.

 

this is the most important question

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