Controversial notion could be making its way into public schools

are you asking me...a human being...to tell you why the Creator of the universe did what He did, assuming that's the way He did it and assuming that He exists??? sorry...wish i could help...but i can't.

 

i just think that is a cop out

an excuse to not use your "God given" ability to *think*

just my opinion, nothing personal..

 

if God is who I say He is...there are a lot of "whys" that go unexplained...i could venture a guess here and there...but honestly, there's no way i could tell you with any real assurance WHY God created anything in any particular way.

i do have a hard time looking at the universe and all the complexity of creation and saying, "eh...it's all a big accident."

 

Why would he want to? I think this is a dead-end line of conversation because it would require some common axioms to have an intelligent discussion that just aren't there. First, agree on some principles on the nature of God, then you can talk why he did things this way instead of that way.

As for the discussion at hand (haven't we done all this before?), I think it is too easy and a myth to say one thing is a science and the other is not and they do not mix. Certainly, some things are sciences and others not, but they cannot help but mix. Science is intricately interwoven with philosophic questions about what is reality and how you know things, among other stuff. Evolution is a theological position as well as a scientific one. The reason why Christians want a foot-hold in the teaching of evolution is because evolution already has a foot-hold in Christianity. When you say Intelligent Design doesn't belong because it isn't science you're denying the very real phenomenon that evolution is ultimately a metaphysical philosophy. It makes it easier to maintain the status quo, but it ain't honest.

I get the distinct feeling that there is another element alongside the disdain for religion in school. That element is a zealous protection of evolution from any criticism. Bundled with intelligent design theory is an argument that the probablity of evolution happening by dumb chance is so low as to not be believable. An argument that evolution is statistically unlikely is scientific and yet they still want to keep it out of science classes. I think this reflects the religious ramifications evolution has for those who believe it. It is part of the theology of an evolutionist every bit as much as Adam and Eve is part of Christianity. Just as the Nicene Creed tried to protect the early Church from heretics, so will the evolutionists shield their creation theory from all attacks, justified or not.

 

do you believe in fate? in destiny? that everything happens for a reason?

Life is full of accidents. Are you happily married? How did you meet your wife? Did you two just happen to be at the same place at the same time? An accident? Just because there is no "purpose" reason behind the situation where you two met, doesn't mean there has to be some intelligent design guiding the meeting...


evolution isnt purely a big accident, it is the result of measurable, observable actions that happen according to the laws of physics and chemistry (aka Math aka Order)

 

i believe in God. i believe in a sovereign God...a John Calvin sort of God. the story that brought me to my wife tends to point to that, in my view. i don't view it as an accident at all...i'm sure many...perhaps most..would. i simply don't.

but i'm a freak.

evolution is not an accident...the world as we know it is, according to the theory of evolution...my point was that i see design...i look at the complexity of the human eye, and i know of no force other than the divine that pulls all that together..i look at the intricate systems of the human body...and i can't imagine how one could conclude that it just sorta came to be...with no design at all. with no creator.

 

OK.

Not necessarily. The divine design could have been thought out before hand. If He is omnipotent and omnipresent, then He could see the result of His creation even before the creation took place. While I do not believe that this theory needs to be taught in school, I do believe that God set things up so that evolution could take place. He set the stage and we have all played our parts since then.

Once the stage is set, evolution can take place. He put the beginnings of life out there and life evolved from there. The strong survived and the weak went by the wayside. All of the variations, mutations, and changes in the planet are very easily explained by evolution. To me, the only question was (past tense because it has been answered for me) where did the life come from in the first place.

 

and I can tell that your belief in God gives you great confort and that is great...

I just am not the kind of person that can just accept a concept like intelligent design (which has zero empirical evidence). For me, I need to see it with my own eyes to believe it, it is just the way I am..I can see math,physics, chemistry, geology, etc etc and the concepts,theories, facts contained in the study of the physical world can been seen, measured, tested, falsified...

I also think there is validity to the old addage of Oxam's Razor (sp?)

The human eye (which is not the most complex eye in the animal world) ...i think there really can be no doubt that the eye and other body systems we have in today's humans are a result of evolution, the only argument is with HOW they evolved..

is it because of slow changes over millions of years?
is it because of slow changes over millions of years guided by some invisible force?

Adding God to the explaination over complicates it

 

well it doesn't overcomplicate it for me...but i agree with you that it need not be taught at a public school.

i'm betting if you thought about it, you'd realize you put faith in a lot of things you can't see. but that's neither here nor there.

 

As far as fate vs. free will, I believe in both. When He created the universe, he created every possible situation, circumstance, and possibility. If you have ever looked into quantum theory, it is something like that. Every time a decision is made, there is a "fork" in the universe and both (or all) of the possibilities are represented as distinct and separate universes. All of those universes already exist and as such are predetermined, but we have the freedom to choose which path we take along the road of our life.

 

how does one believe in both fate and free will?

if everything is preplanned, there truely is no free will, you might think you are exercising free will, but you aren't if every action, thought, and nose picking exepedition is a result of fate..

 

now why would any animal need to change over time if it was designed by God? Did God make mistakes that needed to be corrected? You can't say that God needed his creatures to change over time to meet the challenges of living in new environments because, according to you, God is behind the changes in the environment as well. And wouldn't an "Intelligent Designer" be able to design a biosphere that wouldnt require change?

You assume here that you know the ultimate purpose of God. Why wouldn't he want animals to evolve? Why wouldn't he want an environment that changes and grows? The answer is the same as the answer to why he would want animals to evolve or why he would want an environment that changes any grows.

According to most religions, I would think the answer would be we have no idea because we don't necessarily know the purpose of it all.

 

how does one believe in both fate and free will?


Easy. Opportunities are created through fate, but the life that one ends up living is a result of his or her choices on how to respond to those opportunities.

"Opportunity knocks, but you still have to open the door."

 

Did you read the whole paragraph or just the first sentance?

Everything, every choice, every possibility, every decision we could possibly make has been created already. When we go through this life, we make our own decisions and as such, experience this life with free will.

 

there is tension between the two in Christianity...i've never been able to fully express my beliefs on this issue. ultimately, i'm not dogmatic on this issue.

 

Well said.

 

major -- just curious...and you don't have to answer if you don't want to, obviously...do you believe in God?

 

that is another interesting point

that is also something to also bothers me about Creationism (aka ID), that people assume that humans are the ultimate purpose of life..we've only been on this planet such a small fraction of time compared to the 4 billion years the earth has existed..

I mean doesnt the Book of Genesis clearly state that all the animals and plants are created to be *used* by man?

Oh and that leads me to another question, how does ID fit into the Book Of Genesis and the creating the world in 6 days or whatever it is..

do those of you that believe in ID/evolution combination think that the "Day" in Genesis isn't a literal 24 hour day?

 

major -- just curious...and you don't have to answer if you don't want to, obviously...do you believe in God?

Absolutely. I don't necessarily fit into any particular religion, but I have no doubt that there's a God based on experiences in my life.

 

I believe the Bible isn't a science book...let's assume Genesis is God's revelation of creation to the author of the book...how does He tell that story in a way that man can comprehend?? I think the spirit of the story is dead on...but I don't know what to make of the days, etc...honestly, i think it's far more likely that days means eras...but i don't know.