[Controversial] I feel McGrady should be our 3rd Option

kenshinmx · Oct 31, 2008

i sellect Yao-McGrady-Artest

shortfuse3 · Oct 31, 2008

badgerfan said:

That hits the nail on the head. It's always been Yao OR T-Mac coming up big, never both in the same game. Now the question becomes whether or not Yao and Artest can both have monster nights in the same game.
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I meant whenever Yao had a huge game, T-Mac would defer to him and not score as much, but what we needed was for him to score as well. Ron has that killer instinct we missed.

jmr123jmr · Oct 31, 2008

I am just going to say it like this and it really makes it simple and realistic.

Who ever has it going should be able to score in any situation. Some nights would be T-Mac scoring 24 plus points. Same for Yao and Ron but need to be there averaging about 20 points a game. We play great defense and execute in the stretch, we would be the TEAM everybody sees further ahead.

This is out of the subject: Charles Barkely is officailly the hater of the Rockets every since left the team. Does not want to give us no credit. But we don't need that from him. Houston Rockets are contenders once again.

frank2030 · Oct 31, 2008

Artest!

frank2030 · Oct 31, 2008

tmac assist yao or artest~

AntiSonic · Oct 31, 2008

emjohn said:

I expect this will rankle at least a third of the BBS, so I'll try to be as clear as I can with this:

* this is not a "T-Mac sux!" thread
* this is not a "T-Mac should be traded!" thread

* this is about what I think may be in the best interest of the Rockets going forwardive.
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It's really a shame that you had to put this disclaimer. It's a bigger shame that it still didn't keep out the "hater" chorus.

My two cents
fist option - Yao
second option - Ron
third option - Scola

pdewalt · Oct 31, 2008

And here is the winner......

BackNthDay said:

In the 1970 words of Al Davis, Just Win Baby (22 game streak). As long as Rafer isn't taking the shot to get us out of the 1st round of the playoffs, I'm good.
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jasonemilio · Oct 31, 2008

AntiSonic said:

It's really a shame that you had to put this disclaimer. It's a bigger shame that it still didn't keep out the "hater" chorus.

My two cents
fist option - Yao
second option - Ron
third option - Scola
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I love you!!!!!!!!!

badgerfan · Oct 31, 2008

shortfuse3 said:

I meant whenever Yao had a huge game, T-Mac would defer to him and not score as much, but what we needed was for him to score as well. Ron has that killer instinct we missed.
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I know what you're talking about, but I also have to wonder if there's a clash of playing styles there. Both guys needs to handle the ball a lot to be effective.

Maybe not so much with Ron Ron.

MaxRider · Oct 31, 2008

I don't care what you call it, but the ball should be in T-Mac's hand most of the time. He's our playmaker.

wekko368 · Oct 31, 2008

MaxRider said:

I don't care what you call it, but the ball should be in T-Mac's hand most of the time. He's our playmaker.
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Yao and Artest dont need other people to make plays for them.

If anything, Yao only needs someone who can throw a decent entry pass.

Trackwell · Oct 31, 2008

larsv8 said:

I disagree with this ranking system and your thinking in general. The Adelman offense says take what the defense gives you...who has the mismatch?, who is healthy? You speak as if they just go 1-2-3, now its Battiers turn, etc.

I think you will see McGradys %s go through the roof this season. Just look at the one preseason game he played, he was slow and hobbled and still shot 50%.

At the end of the game in a clutch situation, I am still most comfortable with the ball in McGradys hands. Either he will find an open shooter or he will take it. McGrady is still what makes this team special, not as much as before, but he is still the best player.
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Man you hit it on the nail! I couldn't agree more. You can't say who is are "go to man", becuase it is going to be different depending on who we are playing and how the game is going. TMac is not 100% yet and I am all for him walking around until he feels comfortable enough to get more aggressive and involved. We are in a great situation to be having this conversation. I love all three of our stars for different reasons. TMAC is still OUR leader and when he is healthy, I want him to have the ball in his hands in the closing minutes of games, unless Yao or Ron have great matchups. This team has the chance to be great and the start of something really special.

Trisha · Nov 2, 2008

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=156196
I noticed that you wrote "scoring" options ,so I choiced "Yao-McGrady-Artest ",but didn't that sure if it's "Yao-Artest-McGrady ".
Then I read your whole post,then found you said " with him being employed as a "bonus" third option."I think maybe I misunderstanded your poll meaning...."scoring option" doesn't necessarily equal "option",maybe you didn't know that.
Also,I noticed you gave the data last (2) seasons to support your options,but,when went to the injuries,you didn't give the data but just concluded that T-Mac would be the one who play lest,because this time date couldn't support you.
And,you said T-Mac is now 5 years removed from his peak? That's mean,you think when in 04-05,that was a washed up T-Mac? T-Mac just was beaten since 05-06's back injury.

SupportingCast · Nov 2, 2008

1st of all having TRACY MCGRADY as a 3rd option for scoring is flat out stupid. If you believe this then you obviously don't appreciate how amazing T-Mac is. Don't say that this isn't a tmac bash thread when you just list reasons why you think tmac sucks. I think its pathetic the lack of respect you're giving T-Mac, and please stop wasting 2 hours of your life making a rediculous thread like this and do something productive...... no one needs to read this BS

kwng · Nov 2, 2008

I personally think that Adelman gameplan does not involve first option, second option or third option scorer unlike JVG (who insisted everyone force pass to Yao even though he is surrounded several players). Any "open" player or anyone who is "hot" can be the main option.The plan is pass until
you get the "open" guy or the best guy to score.

moussaka · Nov 2, 2008

Totally agree, especially on the efficiency arguement.

Recent seasons Tmac has been more reluctant to attack the basket and the inaccurate jumper contributes way too little (I hate this not just for scoring failure but for consuming and discouraging his teammates, which archieves nothing at all), and this would not be what the Rockets expects IMO.

moussaka · Nov 2, 2008

moussaka said:

Totally agree, especially on the efficiency arguement.

Recent seasons Tmac has been more reluctant to attack the basket and the inaccurate jumper contributes way too little (I hate this not just for scoring failure but for consuming and discouraging his teammates, which achieves nothing at all), and this would not be what the Rockets expects IMO.
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fixed

slimichael85 · Nov 2, 2008

I voted for Yao/Mac/Ron.
However, one of my concerns is that if we rely too much on Yao in the regular season, play him too much, too intense. The big guy may collapse just as we saw last yr at the end of season, turning out to be powerless when playoff(what really matters) comes

Pizza_Da_Hut · Nov 2, 2008

AntiSonic said:

It's really a shame that you had to put this disclaimer. It's a bigger shame that it still didn't keep out the "hater" chorus.

My two cents
fist option - Yao
second option - Ron
third option - SF3
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Fixed it.

All seriousness, I think Tmac is still the brains of this team, Yao is the body, and Ron is the balls. SF3, well, he's the left kidney, it'd be nice to have him here, but we'll still make it without him.

emjohn · Dec 24, 2008

emjohn said:

I expect this will rankle at least a third of the BBS, so I'll try to be as clear as I can with this:

* this is not a "T-Mac sux!" thread
* this is not a "T-Mac should be traded!" thread

* this is about what I think may be in the best interest of the Rockets going forward

Why I feel this way:
1. The primary option must be able to break down an opponent's defense with regularity. Causing a defense to break down is the means to the end for any successful offense. You can either do so with team play (passing/cutting; the Adelman offense idealized), or with an unstoppable superstar that creates opportunities by drawing double/triple teams (Dream, LeBron).
Both Yao and Artest have shown they play well within the Adelman offense and both have shown they can break down a defense with their post play. Each year as a Rocket, McGrady has (in my eyes) grown more reluctant to attack the basket and break down a defense, increasingly prone to hang around the perimeter with or without the ball, and many here noted his disinclination to execute the Adelman offense.*
I consider the best statistical marker of a player's ability to wreck a defense by their FTA avg. Yao over the last two years has been the best at drawing fouls (8 fta/gm despite 83% career); Ron and McGrady are similar in this regard (5.2/gm as a King, McGrady dropping each year as a Rocket to last season's 5.4 avg).

2. Reliability as a scorer.
You want to know your #1 is going to show up every game and give you numbers.
I use a self-made marker for scoring consistency/reliability. I look at the percentage of games a player makes at least 2/3rds of his average or better. Everyone has good games and small-number games....but if you average 21, your team should count on you for better than 14 each night. Guys like Drew Gooden get bounced around the league despite a fair avg and numerous 20-10 games because he's just as likely to give you 7-5 the next night.
Last season, Yao got 2/3rds or better in 82% of games played (22 ppg-->15+ points in 45 games out of 55). Artest 86%, McGrady 74%.

3. Efficiency as a scorer.
For efficiency, I rely on points per shot. People get bent out of shape about this sometimes, but I have yet to hear a good argument against it: if you can get your team more points with using fewer possessions (shots), you're an efficient scorer. If you need 20+ shots to get 20 points, that's not a winning formula.
Yao, last two years: 1.44 pps. Ron, last two years: 1.24 pps. McGrady, last two years: 1.14 pps.
I'll wedge in here that slightly less than a quarter of Ron's shots are from 3, and he's been hitting them at a 37% clip the last two years. McGrady takes slightly more than a quarter of his shots from 3, despite hitting a weak 31% the last two years (29% last year). If you're taking more than 2 or 3 shots from deep each game, I'd expect you to hit at least a third of them. If you can't, cut down the attempts as they're no better than turnovers - and missed 3s are great at sparking a fastbreak the other way.

4. He's past his prime.
This shouldn't even be up for debate. He's only 29, but he's a very old 29, thanks to jumping over from HS. McGrady is now undeniably 5 years removed from his peak as an NBA player. By almost (assists a notable exception) every statistical and subjective measure, he does not produce what he used. Both Yao and Artest, by contrast, appear to be firmly within their primes.

5. He's going to be dealing with nagging injuries all year.
This may be more up for debate, but he's the only guy of the 3 who has openly declared that he is not going to be 100% going into the season (knee, shoulder) and even worse has already said he'll need surgery. He also has a chronic back condition, which is never going to go away.
It's only fair to mention that all 3 of our stars have a terrible history, recent or otherwise, of staying on the court. But of the three, McGrady seems to have the lowest chance of playing 90% or more of the regular season (at least at full strength).

Again - this is NOT a thread meant to ridicule McGrady. He can and has been a huge part of our success and we would not be better off without him.

What I am getting at is that we may have our best team success with him being employed as a "bonus" third option. Put the ball more often into the hands of the 2 stars that are more dependable game in and game out, the ones who score more efficiently, the ones who more regularly break down a defense close to the basket, the ones that best run the Adelman attack.

Evan

* - I hate anecdotal-only "evidence" to back up a point, but I'm not sure how to get around it here. This naturally is open to debate since everyone sees things from their own unique perspective.
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Bringing this back up, as Tracy seems to have hammered most of these points home the past 6 weeks.

To be honest? I'm starting to wonder if we wouldn't be best served with him coming off the bench. Given his salary and ego, I know that isn't plausible.

Evan

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[Controversial] I feel McGrady should be our 3rd Option

Who should be our 1-2-3 scoring options (ranked)?

Yao-McGrady-Artest

McGrady-Yao-Artest

Yao-Artest-McGrady

McGrady-Artest-Yao

Artest-McGrady-Yao

Artest-Yao-McGrady

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kenshinmx New Member

shortfuse3 Member

jmr123jmr Member

frank2030 Member

frank2030 Member

AntiSonic Member

pdewalt Member

jasonemilio Member

badgerfan Member

MaxRider Member

wekko368 Member

Trackwell Member

Trisha Member

SupportingCast Member

kwng Member

moussaka New Member

moussaka New Member

slimichael85 Member

Pizza_Da_Hut I put on pants for this?

emjohn Member

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