Brah. The Jesus that hated rituals, who is also is the same Jesus that celebrated many as a Jew, is yours. That's why I asked. It has nothing to do with my beliefs. I don't even know for sure what I believe... But I know I don't have a hatred for rituals. You can find them in any culture / religion. Try reading up on some social or cultural anthropology. It is absurd to condemn any group for having them. They are part of the human experience.
That would actually go against the teaching of Christ. But I guess you would just not believe those teachings. Jesus was compassionate and caring, but also put down the law as he (God) saw it. The holy spirit helped write the bible. The bible is the word of the holy trinity...or do you leave that belief out as well? Go on believing what you believe. I just want to warn you that once you die and pass on to the next life, you will stand in judgement, and its not what you believed what was right in life that will save you...it what God believed was right in life that will save you...and its spelled out very plainly by his Word. Part of being a Christian is submitting to God and Jesus...not arguing with him on points of what you believe. When God tells me to jump, I don't ask how high, I jump as high and as soon as I can (or I strive to).
Unfrozen Cave man lawyer is bewildered by these strange words. Cultural anthropology? What can it be? I'm frightened by your using non Biblical references as support for rituals. Confuse caveman. hey, put a bone through your nose and call it the will of God smear blood on a doorway drink wine and call it blood eat bread and call it flesh one man's superstition is another man's religion, ain't it?
I think Friendly Fan should change his name --- he seems like a very angry person Riutuals are o.k. as long as the ritual isn't what's important but the meaning behind what the commemerate
FF -- not sure what you're really like...but you really come across like you have an axe to grind. you keep talking about people trying to force their vision of God upon you...and I've yet to see that happen here. instead, you've called one group's adherance through faith to ritual a pile of manure...and you mock the faith of others. that was really cool in junior high, but most of the people here really aren't impressed with that.
So what if FF has an axe to grind? It wouldn't be the first time someone was beat over the head with a bible--or maybe liturgical worship in this case--found their own truths, recognized the hypocrisy in the system and wants to rail, rightfully so, against the folks who perpetuated the cult/fire&brimstone that tried to re-shape his mind? Maybe he went a bit far....but there are plenty of "christian" posters who have an axe to grind as well....we ALL want to get our point across. Maybe I'm way-off....
FF- Stop trying to sound like Spinoza, pure rationalism went out the window as a viable philasophic option ages ago. Ask any hippy-stoner about that. I said example mainly as an example of the stuff I've had to put up with in being Catholic, not as trying to be mean to you. I do make one suggestion though. At some point, you will have to give yourself over to something. When you do, you will find freedom. A paradox, but true. You sound as if you do have some resentment, although you claim to have none, towards other denominations. That is fine, believe what you will. You have some personal stake where you want God to be your God rather than God. However, your ideas relate some sort of moral relativism, which is dangerous, let me warn you of that. That said, Free will is in Genesis; man chooses to either love or not love God. It is the essence of our individuality and the continuation of love, for love must always have a pair of lovers. Regarding the rest of you guys, I appreciate the concerns you show with the church. I do have some specific concerns, and please bring them back up if I forget any. 1. Somebody said that the church wasn't scripture based? Thats not true and I don't really see how that can be said. Regarding apostolic tradition, Christ set that up himself in his disciples and his choosing of Peter.... Faith and revelation (Christ and the Bible) provide the first precepts of the church from which reason makes the neccessary conclusions...from men who dedicate their lives to following the footsteps of Christ... For instance, how do we say that Christ is hypostatically both man and God? The word hypostasis (which for the sake of saving a huge explanation lets just sum it up by saying mystery) is not found in the bible. Well, deductions of reason (for man was given reason by God) say that if Christ was simply man, then he really wouldn't have been able to save us, he simply becomes a great example of how to live your life rather than some great diety who actually changes your life, i.e. the hardened heart becoming unhardened. If he was simply God, then there is no real suffering, nothing special about his death because he was just a God and it doesn't really matter. Couple that with the many instances of both his humanity and divinity that are given in scripture, and it seems as if an explanation is needed. That is what the church does in ways of dogma, simply expounding on the truths of the bible through reason and the church, which are in the bible and set up to do excactly that. Thus the reasoning behind all the dogma and tradition of the church.... 2. On the celibacy of the priests, I'll simply provide a couple of links because I think good Ol' JPII can explain it alot better than I.... http://www.nfpoutreach.org/Hogan_Theology_ Body1.htm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12409a.htm 3. There were some other things too but I think I forgot them all ready, oh yeah Mary, like they said we call her the mediatrix, i.e. she intercedes for us, not that we pray to her but through her and she stays in constant prayer for us, as does the whole communion of Sts. And she has such a long place in the Cathecism simply because it is a very complex dogma that needs a lot 'splainin! But it all makes sense...ask the people of Lourdes or Fatima.... 4. Oh yeah infallable pope, this was all discussed on an earlier thread but all that means is things declared ex-cathedra are infallable...look it up on google if you want, or go to www.newadvent.org and look for infallability... it definitely doesn't mean he can't sin... Peace
Ok- Do I get a turn? My concerns with other Christian denominations. a) I simply love and am in awe with the dedication and love to Christ...really truly deeply....however, I don't think the Catholic Church is missing that, and often we are accused of because we do have a lot of dogma. My concerns however, is that a lot of times, it simply stops there, when it could go deeper. The same is true for a lot of Catholics out there, so don't get me wrong this is more of a general spiritual problem with modern society. However, I think that the Catholic church provides for ways to deepen that relationship with God and Christ everyday, in every action that we do.... for instance, just the reading of Aquinas and appreciation that one should feel for every blade of grass after doing so is a very spiritual deeping, one at the very heart of exhistence, for the Word created the world, created that piece of grass, for the word is Christ. Bottom line, I think understanding a piece of grass is essential to the deeping of a spiritual life, a life truly lived in love in every part of the day, not just on Sundays and/or Wednesdays. b) The Eucharist. I try to make it the center of my day. I truly am sad that this bread from heaven, this rite set up in the gospels, is often looked upon as just symbolism and ceremony. But thats a whole 'nother forumn. I don't see why there is so much antipathy towards it. c) All the splinter sects. Beware false prophets. I mean, It seems as if religion is becoming, how can I change religion for me rather than how can I be changed by religion. To quote the Mooninites from the Aqua Teen Hunger Force-- "Frylock we're full of religion now man. Err bow your head and pretend to be serious. Frylock you have enraged our God and our God is a God of Vengeance, and rath, and sharp claws. Our God changes into a wolf. The wolfin will come for you when you are asleep." There is no stable message any more, sure the claim to be based on the bible is great, but one can probably twist the bible to mean a whole lot of things it doesnt if they wanted (see FF's posts ) Ok so I have a whole laundry list, but I think it is important that I emphasize that I applaud the desire to Christ and to sacred scripture. I truly feel in confraternity with you guys through "Baptism by desire" Edit: and desire is the beggining of love, probably the most important idea to be developed from Vatican II.
Isn't it amusing that if I have a God that is different from their God, I'm the one with the axe to grind? It's not an axe to grind on my part. It's a statement of beliefs which differ. I find most religion to be anachronisms. I'm not alone in that. Most of the intelligensia in the world share that view. Those who cling to religion still see it as their personal connection to the spirit world. Many don't share that vision. I am one of them. There is a substantial GOD SQUAD here, and they flock to threads where heresies are spoken against their beliefs. They have their views, and I have mine. Both sets of beliefs are entirely based upon what WE each want.
Religion (30 quotes) God will pardon me, that's his line of work. — Heinrich Heine, his last words. If I were to get to heaven, I would probably find an exhausted guardian angel who had been getting me out of trouble all these years. — Thomas Sowell (1930- ). You have to just marvel at the stun-gun absurdity of fighting to the death over what happens after you die. — Dennis Miller (1953- ). If there is no God then who has placed a pox on me and mocks me every day? — Dan Castellaneta (1958- ). Man serves God or god, but never both. — Reggie Barlow. God is an on-time God. He may not come when you want or need him, but he's always on time. —Unknown. Some believe in the stars, I believe in the one who made them. —Unknown. Thank God I'm an atheist. — Luis Buñel. When the one great scorer comes to write against your name he marks not that you won or lost but how you played the game. —Unknown. You have to be prepared for the possibility that God does not like you. — Fight Club. Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers. — Garth Brooks (1962- ). The soul of a civilization is its religion, and it dies with its faith. — Will Durant (1885-1981). God does not ask your ability or your inability. He asks only your availability. — Mary Kay Ashe. If a man cannot be a Christian in the place where he is, he cannot be a Christian anywhere. — Henry Ward Beecher (1813-1887). Even the merest gesture is holy if it is filled with faith. — Franz Kafka (1883-1924). Faith is believing in what you know isn't true. — Arthur C. Clarke (1917- ). Everyone has eternal life. The question is, where are you going to spend it? —Unknown. A man without religion is like a fish without a bicycle. — Vique. If God had really intended man to fly, He'd make it easier to get to the airport. — Jonathan Winters (1925- ). Forgive, O Lord, my little jokes on Thee, and I'll forgive Thy great big one on me. — Robert Frost (1874-1963). If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. — Voltaire (1694-1778). I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just. — President Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826). Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged — President Ronald Reagan (1911- ). The only man that was perfect was crucified for it. —Unknown. On the eighth day, man created God. —Unknown. God has created the past; God has created the future; God has also created today and given it to us as a "present." — Daniel Rozenberg. I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use. — Galileo Galilei (1564-1642). The only good thing to come out of religion was the music. — George Carlin (1937- ). If God is so powerful, can He make a rock that is so heavy that He Himself can't lift it? — George Carlin (1937- ). All religions must be tolerated ... every man must go to heaven in his own way. Die Religionen mü alle toleriert werden ... denn hier muss ein jeder nach seiner Fasson selig werden. — Frederick the Great (1712-1786).
It's interesting how we get violent and angry when discussion turns to faith, which is built on love, compassion and patience. All you need is love, people!
George Carlin On Religion "Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll to to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!" -- George Carlin "I credit that eight years of grammar school with nourishing me in a direction where I could trust myself and trust my instincts. They gave me the tools to reject my faith. They taught me to question and think for myself and to believe in my instincts to such an extent that I just said, This is a wonderful fairy tale they have going here, but it's not for me." -- George Carlin, New York Times, 20 Aug 1995, pg. 17. "If churches want to play the game of politics, let them pay admission like everyone else." -- George Carlin "This is a lttle prayer dedicated to the separation of church and state. I guess if they are going to force those kids to pray in schools they might as well have a nice prayer like this: Our Father who art in heaven, and to the republic for which it stands, thy kingdom come, one nation indivisible as in heaven, give us this day as we forgive those who so proudly we hail. Crown thy good into temptation but deliver us from the twilight's last gleaming. Amen and Awomen." -- George Carlin, on "Saturday Night Live" "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." -- George Carlin "The only good thing ever to come out of religion was the music." -- George Carlin, "Brain Droppings" "I've begun worshipping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It's there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There's no mystery, no one asks for money, I don't have to dress up, and there's no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to 'God' are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate." -- George Carlin "I would never want to be a member of a group whose symbol was a guy nailed to two pieces of wood". -- George Carlin
I'm NOT ANGRY! don't make me kill you for believing different! I'll call it the Inquisition. yeah, that's the ticket.
LOL Love the Carlin quotes by the way. CLASSIC stuff there. The Reagan quote is pretty dang good, too. The Thomas Sowell quote may be the best I've ever read on the subject.
If there is one person who has most influenced my view of religion, it is George Carlin. So when you read my comments, try to think of them as having a Carlinian quality. It's almost the same as his, I'm just a little more spiritually inclined than he is.
Carlinian Quality......ladies and gent's--I have O'fficialy heard it ALL now!! LOL George rox, I LOVED his new special he had on HBO a couple of years back "Complaints and Grievences"--he refined ALL we need to know from the ten commandments--Murdering folks is wrong and you shouldn't steal other peoples stuff...amen
is that the one where he talks about not worrying about germs so much? I'm with him. If food hits the floor, I'm eating it unless it's got dirt or hair on it.
i'm a little confused how FF gets to play the victim after coming in this thread and calling someone's beliefs a pile of manure...i have yet to defend my faith in this thread...at least i don't think i have...and i've yet to see anyone attempt to ram their faith upon FF here in this thread. maybe i'm missing something. where have you been persecuted, FF? show me in this thread where it happened, prior to your announcement that Catholocism bought into a pile of manure. thanks.
