Can either of you bozos show the relevance of the stats given that Cato's minutes have fluctuated b/c of: 1) dream's injuries 2) charles' injuries 3) his own injuries 4) tank-a-thon 5) match-up experimentation (please see #4 above) I would ass-u-me that Camby as a floater is more prone to pick up fouls this season in that Ewing is fit, Kurt Thomas is playing well, etc. If Cato is picking up comparable fouls:minute when he's getting a consistent start (and he's the lone force inside), then it's arguable that there's an issue on the rise. Either way we need bangers. If Ms. Cato cannot stay on the floor because he's thinking up nifty prose for his children's books rather than paying attention to his surroundings, then he will prove inadequate. In the meantime Rudy, can we have more substantial criteria for bloated contracts than whether or not a player drooled in the first 10 games that you coached him? ------------------
Let's not forget that Camby played through various injuries in last year's playoffs while Cato pretty much takes the month off for the same injuries Francis plays on (anke problems). Camby's got the heart...you can see it in his eyes. Launch Pad: I see the point you are making, and there's nothing else I can say at this point. We'll just have to agree to disagree, because I am unable to further defend my opinion. You bring up good arguments, but there's only so much that you can trade Cato-quality for.
Cat, Francis and a few unspecified others are supposedly making plans to workout together this summer to improve their games. Does anyone know if Cato is one of the unspecified others and how much influence will they have on Cato to get his act together? I don't see were it makes a difference if Cat, Francis and SA all improve during the offseason if Cato only makes miniscule progress. Mango ------------------ It could be worse ....... you could have been born a Jazz fan!!!!
Launch Pad, I think you are right with your last post. Anyway, I brought this up before: I think that Cato's stats are more comparable to Keon Clark's from the Nuggets. Actually, I think Keon Clark is better than Cato. Camby is also better than Cato. Something is wrong with Cato. Try to trade him under any circumstances. ------------------
Launch Pad, I made a statement that I did not know how old you were. I didn't call you a "youngster". I said that if you were a youngster, then I could understand why you didn't understand what the stats meant. You took it personally and then called me an "oldtimer" 6 times. You would've made your point much better, if you hadn't resorted to calling me names. You can't complain about what someone is doing and then turn around and do the same thing. You see calling me an "oldtimer" didn't bother me. It just was silly on your part. Congratulations on being a graduate student in Neuroscience. That is a very interesting and demanding field. In fact, my little brother is an undergraduate at Sam Houston, and plans on going to medical school. He's worked in the medical center in Oncology (sp), so I know that stuff is hard work. To give a little background on this here "oldtimer": I'm 30 years old (and not very happy about it). I'm an undergraduate student in the College of Business at the University of Houston, majoring in Finance. So, one thing I'm good at (not the only thing) is numbers. I'm not one of those guys who relies solely on the numbers. I use them as a reference on how players normally perform. I then watch them and try to get a feel for the intangibles they bring to the game. I just feel Camby is more consistent, more intense, a better overall defender, a better offensive player, a better passer, etc. I hope you can agree to disagree with me on this one. Especially since you seem to be the only one opposed to trading Cato and trash to N.Y. for Camby. I look forward to debating further topics in the future. And now that I know who I'm dealing with I'm really gonna use the hell outta some TABLES! ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem. [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited March 25, 2000).]
<font size=2>FLASH: Achebe Wins BBS Writer of the Month</font> In the midst of this glorious thread allow me to rewind everyone for a second...achebe just invented two glorious words: Ostertagged Catoed I'm glad I came back to read this thread. Keep it up ClutchCity...That's why we read this everyday. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited March 25, 2000).]
DREAMer, I'm sorry, I should have used more quotation marks around the word "oldtimer" or smileys in my post to emphasize that I was just being a smart@$$. I was simply playing the part of the "youngster". The part of your post which caused me to write in a more condescending style was: Whether you meant it or not, the message that you delivered there is "you're <referring to me of course> either stupid or a naive kid". No real harm done though. And of course, I'm always willing to agree to disagree; everybody is entitled to their opinion. Neuroscience is cool, but I personally don't have the patience to be a medical doctor. Good luck to your brother though on getting into med school. ------------------
Launch Pad, This is where I think knowing another posters age could be helpful. Because, if I knew you were a youngster I could excuse many of your poor arguments. But, I guess I'll just go through each of your arguments and show you how and why you are wrong. Since I don't know your age (just that you are a student) I'll try to play nice.... ------------------------------- "Hmmm, interesting tables. Now let me tell you why the 48 min breakdown is a cute but largely useless stat. First, it is based on the following several assumptions which simply are not valid:" "...cute but largely useless stat." Have you ever heard of statistics? or percentages? See in this situation Camby and Cato are not even close in the number of minutes they've averaged throughout their careers. So, in order to make them more comparable we choose a number and project each players original stats to that number. I have chosen 48 minutes (as have many many other 'stat' guys) because an NBA game is 48 minutes long and it shows a potential output. I could have easily used 5 min, 10 min, 100 min, 1,000,000 min. The comparison would've been the same. -------------------------------- "Assumption 1) A player will not get tired and will play as hard for the entire 48 min. Do I need to convince anyone that this isn't true. Assumption 2) In terms of fouls, a player will be just as likely to pick up his 6th foul as his 1st (in other words, the same foul/min probability). Obviously, a smart player will either back off a bit when in foul trouble, or will be pulled out of the game, before it becomes an issue. Assumption 3) Players never experience hot or cold streaks. Players simply will not play at the same level throughout a game. Sometimes, they'll be in the zone; sometimes, they'll be in a slump. I could go on with several more, but I think you can see my point." I felt that your "assumptions" were answered in my first reply, but just to make sure you understand what I'm talking about I'll reply to each one of them. And no I don't see your point. Assumption 1: So, they will both get tired, right? So, still their stats will be comparable, right? Assumption 2: Are you implying that Cato is a "smarter" player than Camby? Good luck convincing anyone except yourself of that one. Assumption 3: I realize that, but that's what career and season stats are for. They take the averages of all the slumps and hot streaks and show an 'average' output. ------------------------------- "Here's a better stat for you: Cato has fouled out of 1 game this season and Camby has fouled out of 5." How is this a better stat, when Camby averages more minutes? It is true that Camby is averaging more fouls per minute (0.1317) this season than Cato (0.1307), but not by much. And, over their career the foul per minute stat looks like this: Camby = 0.1164, Cato = 0.1504. ------------------------------- "Another argument that assumes that people don't change. This is Cato's 1st year where he is getting really significant minutes. As he gets used to being a part of the team, it is likely that he will want to take a larger role. Did you expect him to come into this franchise and say, "Hey Dream, step aside and let me show you what mad skills I've got from playing less that 10 mpg last season." What I expected from Cato was: 1. Intensity 2. Blocked Shots 3. Rebounding 4. Defense. And the truth is we all saw those things ..... in the preseason. I didn't expect Cato to take over Dream's starting spot, but guess what Hakeem hasn't been playing much this season, so we need Cato to step it up and he hasn't. The thing that gets me upset with Cato is the fact that the Rocket organization really gave him big and undeserved contract and he doesn't seem to want to perform. He has shown moodiness, a lack of effort, and just saying "I don't want to start" is bad for a team. You do what the team needs you to do. --------------------------------- "There seems to be a strange conception that PFs aren't "big" players. Gee, I wonder why they're called "power" forwards then? Unless, you think Pig can handle center, I'd suggest finding yourself a center over a PF." I never said PFs weren't "big" players. I do, however, think they are "on average" smaller than the average Center in the NBA. I also didn't disagree that Camby was on the lighter side. So, what's your point? I did say that if we got Camby that we'd need to also get a Center... someone like Ervin Johnson would probably be a decent fit. -------------------------------- "Do you honestly believe that Camby is creating his own shots? He has no jump shot and his post moves are mediocre on a good day. All his 10.4 ppg tell me is NY has a better passing game than Houston, therefore allowing him to get his 10.4 ppg (BTW that's not a whole lot more impressive than Cato's 8.4 ppg alongside Francis and alternatingly hot Cat, SA, and Walt in less PT)." If "N.Y. has a better passing game than Houston" then why are we averaging more assists per game than them (21.4 - 19.3)? Now you making me make another table, and that makes me mad... <BR CLEAR="all"><CENTER><TABLE BORDER ALIGN="center"><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center">Player</DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Houston</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Sprewell</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Ewing</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Johnson</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Camby</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Thomas</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>PTS</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>20.1</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>19.2</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>14.5</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD VALIGN="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>11.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD VALIGN="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>10.3</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>7.9</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center">Player</DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Francis</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Mobley</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Shandon</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Hakeem</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Walt</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Cato</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>PTS</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>17.7</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>15.2</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>11.5</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>10.3</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>9.7</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>8.2</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></CENTER> So, tell me again how Francis and Mobley are taking up more shots than Houston and Spree? In fact the Knick duo has taken approximately 400 more shots than their Houston counterparts. ------------------------------ "Here's a huge assumption. How many times have you actually seen Cato in the playoffs. For all you know, he could become a madman in the playoffs. That's like saying apples are much better than oranges, before you've even tasted an orange." How is it an 'assumption'. I stated that it was a fact that Camby raised his stats in FG%, Steals, TOs, and Rebounding. On the other hand Cato actually plays worse in every category. That's a fact. Where's the assumption? Now, if your saying that Cato can put up worse numbers in every category and still play better than Camby in the playoffs, then again you're just about the only one you're gonna get to believe that. -------------------------------- "I see, so there are only 2 types of players in this league: 1) players of the exact same prototype as the one that you want to dump, or 2)superstars. Hmmm, you see, I thought that you could scout for several distinctive qualities in a center." No, just by reading your posts it seemed like you wanted to trade Cato for someone who was much better than him. You say different, but I prefer Camby's well-roundedness. I also prefer Camby because he is young, athletic, and tall. Three qualities you can't teach. We obviously have a different opinion on who the Rockets should get. ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem. [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited March 25, 2000).]
Now listen, I know you all think Wizard is not the man for the SF postion. But I have alot of faith in that guy. I think if the Rockets give him over the summer to work on his game abit more he will put up the numbers he's known for. Remember his 43% beyond the ark, 41% from the field. He might have done this as a back up 3 man but he might have needed time to get used of his starting role agian. Also I think Rudy T likes his game, I wouldn't mind beting he'll be here for another few years or more even if it is for off the bench! Also if we needed a SF with defensive skillz why didn't we waive Walt and keep Stacey Augman???? ------------------ [This message has been edited by Carlos Rogers (edited March 29, 2000).]
