Achebe: Sorry to hear that about your dad. My grandfather (dad's dad) died when I was 5. He was 54 but looked like he was in his 70s. All I remembered about him was that he was in a wheelchair because he had to have his legs amputated thanks to alcoholism which is what really killed him. My father, for the most part, has never come even close to touching anything alcoholic out of the fear that he would become an alcoholic. He had a very difficult childhood as you could imagine, but he made something out of himself and I feel he did the best he could in raising me. That doesn't mean that my childhood was completely a bed of roses. It has only been recently that I have let some ill feelings about some things growing up go. In other words, I wished that my childhood could have been better, but I realize now that he was only doing the best he could and that he does really love me. You can't fault him for that. Yes, I agree with you that alcoholism is way more destructive than homosexuality, but don't you think that having a family torn apart because their child "came out" is destructive?? However, you are right that there are far more destructive behavior with alcoholism than there are with homosexuality.
Is that the fault of the homosexual Manny, or the fault of his ignorant and intolerant family? I say the latter.
What is "WRONG" is telling a great poster such as Manny that he did WRONG, because of his point of view...We all have different points of view (that is what makes this BBS great), and I have never, never told another poster he was wrong because of something...I might say Jeff's view on mowing grass is wrong, but I'll never say Jeff is wrong for having his view on grass mowing...I am very disappointed with some posters here...I thought so highly of Batman (because of his quality in posting), but I am not sure now... Also saying you would change your vote on him is slightly childish, no? I didn't vote for Manny, because I don't consider him a rookie...I consider him as top 15 poster in terms of quality who has already established himself... In case you don't realize it I certainly agree with Manny's view, and I respect his opinion...There are times I don't agree with some of his views, but I still respect his opinion...
So, you don't respect our opinion then. Sounds a little hypocritical. I respect Manny's right to have an opinion. I also whole heartedly and vehemently disagree with it.
That's a good point, RM95. I think that the family would have to take a step back and evaluate what may have caused this to happen (remember, I think it is a learned trait and not one that is inherited). If they feel that their child had a happy and normal childhood, then maybe there was a inherited tendency for their child to become homosexual. At that point, it would be up to both the individual and the family on trying to reconcile. Obviously, both sides would have to concede some things or it will never work out. BTW - you're not calling me a homosexual, are you RM95?? (I knew what you meant - just a playful jibe).
Yep. My parent's families were torn apart when my Jewish Father proposed to my Roman Catholic Mother. Who's fault was that?
an Atheist Married Couple . . . odd IMO Marriage is a religious union . .that has been made into a legal entitiy. They should have a union or a merger not a marriage. . . The fact that they have commit to a union that has its basis and origin in a religion is actually funny to me. It's like not eating meat but eating meat bi-products. Rocket River how many atheist belong to the YMCA?
I don't think it's about gaining certain rights, but about them currently being denied rights that others have. I could agree that homosexuals shouldn't have special rights that others don't have, but just give them the same rights. The right to marry is given to hetero marriages, adopting kids, being on a partner's health insurance, etc. are all ok for hetero couples but none of it is ok for gay couples. I think they are entitled to the same rights, not certain rights that nobody else gets. I think it's not a matter of they get rights because of a lifestyle, but because they are U.S. citizens/human beings, whatever. If two guys get married, in what way does that belittle my hetero marriage, or anyone elses heterosexual lifestyle?
Manny, I wouldn't encourage you to keep your opinions to yourself. I just hope that they will change over time. I don't think you hate gays or wish them harm, but I think you are a class A homophobe. A lifestyle doesn't afford someone rights but it also shouldn't take them away. In this country we are born with rights. They should not be removed because a person loves someone you'd prefer they didn't. If you can equate homosexuality with a disease, which should be cured, you're on the extreme end of this discussion. I do get a lot from a lot of your posts, but no I did not get anything useful from your posts in this thread except to understand that you think homosexuality is a disease which should be cured or allowed as long as it's kept in the closet, that gays might be nice enough people but you don't want to hang out with them (expressly because they're gay), you're offended when you see them on television, and you're probably against whites and blacks dating. Or is that just with gay folks? This is not personal, Manny. I respect you and I do not bear you ill will. But on all of these points, you are a bigot. And ROXRAN, we all have our ideas of right and wrong. I think bigotry is wrong. When I see an example of extreme bigotry and then someone else posting that there's nothing wrong with that bigotry, I will disagree and say there is. And if this were about race we wouldn't be having this discussion. Since it's about gays it's still an accepted form of bigotry. This, too, will change. But Manny's right to express bigotry towards gays is no more valid than another poster's right to express bigotry toward a particular race. Like I said at the end of my last post to Manny, this is about his right to an opinion versus a whole group of people's right to happiness and freedom from shame. It's not an even trade. And anyway, Manny's going to get to express his opinion here in America, no matter what. He doesn't need my permission anymore than the KKK needs my permission to express their opinions. I repeat, I think there's far too much concern over how we treat each other on a BBS vs. how we treat each other in the real world. The simple fact of Manny's posts in this thread are far more hurtful than anything I could say to him.
Batman, Fair enough. I have no problem with you feeling that I am bigoted toward homosexuals. However, I do have a problem when you take a specific example and use that as a generalization for other things. As a matter of fact, I have another thread going that asks close to what you were saying about interracial dating. Please don't put words in my mouth because in reality, you don't know me and I don't know you. So, I would appreciate the innuendos of me being racist simply because I'm against rights for gays to be kept to yourself because it ain't true, dude. However, I am not mad about that. I can tell that this is a touchy thing for you so I'll let it slide. I just wanted to clear the air. By the way, I know I left this a little fuzzy but you can tell in the other thread.....I believe that homosexuality is a learned trait. I used the alcoholism analogy simply because I have heard so many times "We can't help it that we are this way. We were born like this." Come to think of it, I think I remembered a thread several months back that had a link that some researcher had discovered that homosexuality was more of a learned behavior than a trait that one was born with. But alas, I cannot remember more than that. For some reason in reading your last post, I immediately began to wonder something...I take it that you are against capital punishment (the death penalty). If you are, were you upset that McVeigh got the death penalty or was that different? How about monsters like Bundy, Gacy, etc.? If you are for capital punishment, then ignore those questions. It's just came to me for some reason to ask you. Back to the topic at hand: This thread started out with my concerns about a HIV puppet being shown on a children's show (where 2 to 4 year olds are watching) in the US. Somehow it turned into "my revelation" that I'm a homophobe. I guess that is partly my fault for stoking the fires, but I just want to say this: I guess the biggest thing that I fear is that homosexuality is going to be shoved in my face whether I like it or not. I would rather not have someone come up to me and say "I'm gay and damn proud of it. Deal with it." I would rather not know. Now, I have not had anyone do that to me personally, but I can't help but think with these gay pride parades and the WNBA trying to "cater" to lesbians (I swear that happened but there was too much outrage and they backed off) and shows whether they be on network TV or HBO/Showtime, what is the next step going to be in all of this?? That is my concern. To me I feel that you can overcome being homosexual since it is a learned behavior; however, it is the matter of do you want to overcome it? If people, who are homosexuals, do not want to overcome it then bully for them, but I don't see how they can cry that it is discrimination that they can't marry their "partner". I know it is cliched - but there is a reason that God made man and a reason that God made woman. In other words, it is not natural...at least not to me. But I don't think I'll change your mind and I know you won't change mine, so let's agree to disagree and move on with our lives (although I'm still curious to see what your feelings on capital punishment/death penalty is).
Manny, This seems so out of left field for you, but just my thoughts... I live in a city with the second largest population of homosexuals in America. I've worked with them and counted them among my friends. I have NEVER, NOT ONCE had anyone come up in my face and even think about saying something like that. You live in Tennessee, right? When in the world would you ever have chance for that to happen. I guess if you went into a gay bar in San Francisco and started yelling "What the hell is wrong with all you freaks?" you might get an earful, but exactly how rational is it to worry about something like that? And even in the remotest possibility that DID occur, so? What difference, exactly, would it make in your life? It's not like this is the start of some big movement of queens running around and screaming in people's faces. Why is it a concern? How does it effect you? If the WNBA counts among its fans a large contingent of lesbians, why would they attempt to alienate them or not "cater" to them? If you have fans or customers who are gay and spend a lot of money on you, do you: a. Tell them they are going to hell. b. Make them feel accepted and take their cash. Seems a pretty clear answer if you want to actually stay in business. So what if Showtime or HBO have shows about gays. They also have shows about prison inmates, funeral homes, the mafia... Oh, no, the shows about the mafia might lead to more gang hits! My concern here is that you are having a very strong reaction to something that, admittedly, you don't have to face, well, EVER. It is really a live and let live issue but you seem to take it very personally. By the way, did you know that Moby thinks everyone is a bi-sexual?
The problem with health insurance in this context is that the system would become ripe for fraud. Two guys are roommates and one has no health insurance. They could just claim to be gay...no problem. The whole thing degenerates into a bad episode of "Three's Company." People can say that a straight guy would never claim to be gay, but wierder things have happened to get over on a system. Let's not confuse the issue. The reason why states recognize marriage is to encourage a relationship where it is more difficult to get out than just packing up your stuff one day and heading out the door. This is especially helpful when there are kids. It doesn't stop the relationship from ending, but makes people think twice about it. In this context it has nothing to do with religion. The prohibition against murder is based on the 10 Commandments...should we not have government impose it? Being a Roman Catholic that married a Jew, I can tell everybody that the families can bring tremendous pressure to bear on the relationship. Thank God my in-laws are good people. It could have been a lot harder. Batman seems to be a really good guy. His opinions vary from mine wildly on some things, but he certainly thinks things through. You should think highly of him. When did he get overly personal with you on this?
I think this is all the more reason to allow civil marriages for homosexuals. This way you could allow gay men to share their insurance coverages with their partners and avoid the "Three's Company" fraud scenarios. And I don't think that you're going to see any more men marrying men to get insurance than you will men marrying women (or vice-versa) to get insurance. Manny, I think anyone who says "I'm (insert adjective) and damn proud of it. Get used to it." is annoying no matter what. So if a gay person actually ever says that to you, you have my blessing to say "Shut-up" in return. But you're awfully sensitive about gay parades and HBO shows. How do these hurt you exactly? And what do you mean by "the next step?" Are the gays planning some sinister Final Solution-esque plan to annihilate all straight people. Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. Living in America, we all have alot of stuff shoved in our faces on a daily basis. I'm not sure why, but many people find a news report or a TV show on homosexuality more repugnant than TV shows where heterosexual promiscuity is an ongoing punchline, where garishly attired "ministers" of dubious musical talent promise eternal salvation for a monetary donation, and where drinking Sprite or Zima ( ) is considered an act of rugged individualism. If you don't want to watch a gay parade or a gay TV show, then don't. But don't act like they're the most offensive thing out there - they're not even close.
<b>refman</b>: Wouldn't the allowance of a civil marriage ceremony end the problem of health insurance fraud by masquerading gays?
Sorry for the you suck comment, Refman. I know you're a decent, upstanding citizen. The "you suck" was merely referring to you making a stupid comment, like all of us do from time to time. Your comment was, "this whole it can happen to anybody thing (AIDS) is an attempt by the left to legitimize risky behavior." Maybe I misunderstood since I'm on the right, but are you saying that the people who fall to the left politically (like Jeff, Mrs. JB and others here), are trying to legitimize unsafe sex, needle-sharing and other risky lifestyles by informing our society that "AIDS can happen to anybody?" Because, after working in a hospice with young children dying from AIDS, you would surely see that AIDS CAN and DOES happen to anybody. Have you been all over the world? Have you seen all the children dying of AIDS? I think the only attempt here by the left or the right of the political "center" in our country is to tell the TRUTH about the AIDS virus. I'm not presuming anything, nor am I presenting an argument. I am simply pointing out the ignorance and fallacy of your statement. I am a twerp, though. I'll admit it. Again, sorry for the comment, but after seeing hundreds of children suffering and dying because they were born to or raped by HIV+ people, I don't think "the left" has anything to do with their legitimacy. They're dying of AIDS dammit. As for the AIDS muppet, my 3 year old daughter could definitely do without it. I agree with Refman, Manny, Jeff, Achebe and the rest of you about that. AIDS is a worldwide disease affecting many people. It has nothing to do with Liberal or Conservative, left or right motives in the United States of America.
To all the people who say that gays are trying to get over on insurance companies, I echo all the people who say GIVE THEM THE RIGHT TO MARRY, hold them to the same regulations imposed on straight marriages (which is all they want) and that concern is over. It's really cynical to deny someone the right to marry and then say they're trying to use domestic partner arrangements to cheat the system. And you all know better than that. Manny, again, I don't have any problem at all with you. In fact, the things you're saying are arguments that were in much wider circulation ten years ago. The trend is toward tolerance, and that's why we're even able to have a civil conversation on the matter now. Ten years ago, or worse twenty, this wouldn't have been possible. I don't think you're a bad guy and I don't think you wish anyone (gay or not) ill will. I just think you're behind the curve on this. Twenty years ago I used to make the same arguments you make, to defend my own previous discomfort with homosexuality. I am grateful that I've evolved to a point where I am not only tolerant of gays, but am also good friends with many of them. And I'm grateful that I DO hang out with them outside of work. And it is absolutely no different than hanging out with my straight friends. Who someone chooses to love has no bearing on my relationship with any of my friends. We are all, as humans, so very different that the gender of the person someone sleeps with is less than a non-issue. My straight friends are as likely to have annoying or unpleasant partners as my gay friends. And we are all so similar as humans that I derive great rewards from my relationships with each of my close friends, regardless of their sexual or romantic orientation. I even have frank, enlightening, rewarding conversations on the nature of love and relationships with my gay friends and it's no different than when I have those talks with my straight friends. Frankly I don't want to know too many specifics of the sexuality of my straight friends and they usually don't offer them up. My gay friends, on the other hand, never do. I think you're a smart, compassionate guy, Manny. And I think you'll eventually change your opinion on this. And, for your sake, I really hope you do. You're missing out on an opportunity to know a lot of really great people. Finally, to Refman, I really appreciate your kind words. I think you're cool too.
I thought I made it crystal clear that I respect other people's opinion...I will attack a view, but I don't attack the right to have that view...Understand? .........Too much A&W Root Beer for you I suppose....... back to topic: We all agree 3 yr. olds from the U.S. shouldn't engage in watching and questioning the nature of a stricken HIV puppet (at least most of us...) For those of you who don't have kids, let me assure you that young kids are naturally inquisitive (BIG TIME). They constantly question...They want to know more...Why?, Why? What's that? I just can't lie or use symbolism to my daughter...I can't stand this rearing method. I am like CB4 (I tell things like it is...) I certainly felt confused when I was a little one and folks told me the birds and the bees and the stork.....This startled my brain so much that I had to be hospitilized and suffered from nightmares and convulsions!.......I think the HIV puppet is a good idea, but not to the 3 to 5 age group who is the dominant viewrs....... With that said, I really think the HIV puppet should be utilized to an older audience who can handle the truth...I propose Adult Swim as a great methodology to instigate the merits of accepting the HIV afflicted...... I love you all!
There is a basic problem with gay marriage. I guess they could marry if they promise and swear to remain celibate. In most states (Texas included) sodomy is an illegal act. To allow gay marriage would be to have the state sponsoring an act that by its very terms is contrary to common and statutory law. We could debate whether these laws should be stricken from the books (please don't as I have no opinion on this). But the fact is that the laws aren't likely to change anytime soon. I am merely pointing out the logical legal problem here, nothing more. Very nice post. Your twerpness has been removed. I agree that HIV is a human issue of broad concern. What I was trying to say (albeit not well) is that like it or not, the gay community is the leading interest group on HIV awareness. The gay lifestyle has not been given legitimacy in the mainstream. I would hate for HIV awareness to become a pulpit for legitimizing the homosexual lifestyle. People like Ellen Degeneres have put their own agenda years back. And it is an absolute FACT that being gay is not all a person is. The friends of mine over the years that have been gay have been wonderful people. That they are gay never was even mentioned in conversation. I hope that I will not be misunderstood. Thanks Batman...I will make it a point to go to your theater and seek you out for an in person meeting.
I worked for several HMOs that were Federally Qualified. One result of that was that the Plan had to offer health care to ANY business that wanted it (and that had a minimum amount of employees). Strangely, at least one HMO would not 'write' hair salons. Who's trying to get one over on who?
