I guess I'm so powerful that I can cause people to die...and scornfully no less. As for the you suck comment: You don't even know me you presumptuous twerp. When people have no real argument they go to the you suck card. Nice. I have not been to one I must admit. There was, however, a leader from a lesbian group interviewed by Bill O'Reilly that was calling for an end to the parades due to them sending out the wrong message. Not all attention is good. I'm sure that you are a good and nice guy outlaw. Hell, you're probably a lot of fun to have a beer with. But being gay is not the entire you. If you are gay, then you're gay. If you are a happy and productive member of society then whatever you do behind closed doors is YOUR business and I support your right to your own pursuit of happiness. I just don't want it crammed down my throat at every turn. I know that YOU aren't the problem, but it seems that everywhere you turn it is being force fed to us. Before anybody even asks, yes I have been friends with many gay men. I spend 4 years in the theater. They understood that I am straight and it was never an issue. They were great guys to hang around with. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have a hard time grasping why a person's sexual orientation becomes the only thing they seem concerned about. The Wyoming college student that was killed for being gay a few years ago (Matthew Sheppard I believe) was such a sad story. What is even more sad is that he will only be remembered as gay, and I'm willing to bet that there was SO much more that made up who he was.
I'm sorry, Manny. I generally really enjoy your posts and none of this is meant personally, but ROXRAN is wrong. You DID do wrong here. I don't blame it on you at all. I think it is a result of how you were raised, etc. But the above quote is really unconscionable. outlaw's not a crusader. We know that because he's been one of the very least outspoken people in these various threads on gay rights. It's been mostly straight people taking up the cause. You don't want to see openly gay people on TV. Okay. How do you think gay people feel? They watch straight people on TV 99% of the time. Every joke, every drama, every reality dating show is about how men date women. For gay people this is as unnatural and foreign as gay characters are to you. And you have to watch them a hell of a lot less than gays have to watch straights. Telling them what's normal, telling them what's romantic, making them feel like unwelcome aliens. And now to top it off, some people are offended by the dying among them. I know from your posts you're a reasonable guy, Manny. And I think eventually you'll come around to accepting people living the only way that's natural for them. I don't say that to intone that I have the answers to any of these complex questions. I don't. But this isn't about protecting the sanctity of people's opinions. We have a real situation here. People like outlaw and a lot of other people live every day in a world that considers them 'other.' I'm sorry you're inconvenienced by this. I'm sorry you might have trouble explaining it to your kids once in a while. But try living with it every single day. At every single wedding you attend. Every time you see a wedding on television. Being reminded that you're not 'normal.' This is not an even fight. And it's what's wrong with this whole idea of all opinions being equal. I'm sorry. They're just not. If gay people had the choice to turn straight a lot of them would. They would have much easier lives. Since they don't have that choice, the argument boils down to this: You feel you have the right to oppose another person's lifestyle. Since you're in the majority, you believe only your lifestyle should be represented in popular culture. And let's leave out the kids here, because that's not what you're opposing. You said you preferred not to see gay lifestyles portrayed on television. Gay people say maybe, just maybe, they should be able to have one out of a hundred shows represent someone like them. You say no. That's too many. Cramps your style. Offends you. It's only for ratings. Why should you have to watch that? Like Jeff said, you don't have to. But why would you crusade against it, even on this BBS? I got off track. Here's the unfair fight: Gays say they should be allowed to live the way they want and not be ostracized. They even say they should have some representation on television. You consider it an equally valid 'opinion' that they should not have that. That they don't deserve the same rights to watch shows about them that you take for granted when you watch shows about people who mirror your romantic preferences. It would be a fair fight if gays opposed any straight programming. They don't. They just want what boils down to considerably less than equal time. Gays accept straight programming. That's not good enough for you. And I'm sorry Manny, but that's unfair, it's intolerant and it's disappointing. I voted for you as best new poster. If I'd read your posts in this thread I would never have done that. Sorry. Again, nothing personal. But while we all sweat how we treat each other on a BBS, there seems to be less than no concern for how we treat each other in the real world.
Cohen and Batman-- Even thought it looks like I don't agree with you guys, I appreciate your opinion. I certainly hope that I have not angered either of you in this spirited debate.
Refman, I don't have any problem with you at all. But I'm straight. If I were gay, I might. Gay pride parades aren't a celebration of getting laid. They're a demonstration of the fact that in America they shouldn't be forced to keep their love behind closed doors. They've got a point, you know. A lot of them have been harassed or even beat up for being gay. Some of them have been murdered for it. You ever hear of someone being beat up for being straight? Or murdered? Of course it's a big part of their identity. You're not defined by your heterosexuality because we live in a heterosexual world. outlaw and other gay folks ARE defined by their sexuality, because we live in a world that feels threatened by it and tells them to keep it behind closed doors. How would you feel if you were told that no one minded if you kissed your wife behind closed doors but that you shouldn't do it in front of their kids because you were corrupting them? It's not fun to be gay in a world of straight people and it's not easy, it's downright hard, and your discomfort with it is just plain nothing compared with the discomfort gays experience every single day, hour and minute. I don't think you're a bad guy and I don't bear you ill will. I do hope that you will become more understanding of other people living honestly, the only way they know how to live and that you'll weigh your discomfort with that with their right to love the people they love. You have that right. You even have the right to hold hands with your sweetheart in public. And I'm sure you appreciate that. I'd hope you'd wish that right on everyone. By the way, where'd you work in theater? Us straight folks who work in theater are in the minority. We ought to stick together.
I did theater in high school and for a little while in college. Recently I have thought about trying community theater. I understand the points you make and don't really dispute them. I do have a problem with the parades and such. The video clips and pictures I have seen from these parades are really over the top, and that is where my quarrel lies. Like I have said, I have known many gay men over the years and the VAST majority were really good friends. Interestingly enough, those same guys didn't want to make their sexuality an issue and justy go about living their lives. I think we understand each other. Good to know there is another guy on this board with a love of theater.
Cool, Ref. I don't know if you live in Houston, but if so I hope you'll come check out Tamalalia (I'm guessing you've seen the thread). Hell, maybe you'll wind up working with us somehow. Agreeing on politics and other matters is no criteria there. And if you look at my posts really closely you'll find that my real true interest is in everybody getting along. And so I say peace out, friend. B. Jones
There's a thread (probably on the next page or so) on it. It's the next show from my theater company, which is my job in the non-BBS world. Here's the link: http://bbs.clutchcity.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37772 Hope to see you there.
Wow. I wake up and see that I got blasted by Batman. Batman - I respect your views and as I said before enjoy reading your posts. Since you have said that you enjoyed reading mine, you should know by now that I hardly ever stir up trouble on this BBS when it comes to topics like that. I thought about where my political standing is when I went to bed, but I don't consider myself a conservative but I'm definitely not a liberal. After all, I am for gun control, I am for taxes against the wealthy and trying to improve education (both my parents are teachers - dad is actually retired). However, I am pro-life and against rights for gays. I just don't understand how a lifestyle enables someone to get certain rights. Maybe it is too complicated for me to understand, and I really don't mean to offend anyone here, not even outlaw. Let's pretend for a second that a law is passed to legalize mar1juana and other drugs. It is a lifestyle choice for someone to make in wanting to use drugs. You think, that now it is legal, they would want their own rights?? I know, I know....this is an apples to oranges situation here, but I think it is closer than you might think on first glimpse. To me being gay is a lifestyle just like using drugs is a lifestyle. But what's that you say?? They can't help being gay because they are born that way?? Well, that means that being gay is akin to having a disease then sorta like alcoholism. Hmmm....don't think I have heard about any alcoholic pride parades. If what you say is really true, Batman, about how gays would love to be heterosexual then why don't they try some kind of program that alcoholics do?? In theory, since you are born with the genes to become an alcoholic just like you are (supposedly) born with the genes to be gay, it looks like to me that this is a good analogy. However, no one will want to rehabilitate from being gay because it is frowned upon. I really am not trying to piss you, outlaw, or anyone else off...I'm just trying to give you another side to this topic. I have worked with one gay guy that I know of for sure and I work with another that I'm pretty sure is gay but he hasn't come out like this other guy. The first guy was an okay guy and was very professional and efficient at his job. However, after seeing him kiss his black boyfriend (he was white) in the parking lot one day after work was a little hard to take. However, he never came on to me or anything like that and I enjoyed talking to him. I just didn't want to do anything with him outside of work. The same thing with the other guy - very professional and good to work with. I could talk to this guy all day long because he is that friendly and nice; however, I would not want to hang out with him outside of work. I'm not naive enough to think that I will never encounter running into a homosexual, and believe it or not, I do try very hard to be nice to every person that I meet. But on this topic, I just don't understand it and I guess I never will. If that makes me such a bad person, then all I can say is I am sorry. I don't want anyone to hold a grudge against me since I feel like this, and I will *try* to not speak out against this topic anymore. However, I have felt a long time ago that if you truly have strong feelings on something then it is unhealthy to hold them in and I have been doing that on this topic before. Now, I feel so much better that i have released them.
Refman, I'm not angered either, and I don't know why I would be. Our discussion did not degenerate to name-calling, etc. Manny, You're not stirring up trouble on the BBS. You are presenting your opinion. Maybe you have a hint of guilt about it, but cannot seem to put your finger on it? You equate homosexuality with a disease like alcoholism. Can you see how that carries a negative connotation? For a moment, assume that homosexuals are born that way. Can you see how they may be offended by your statement? If they are born that way, they cannot change it any more than we can change our ethnicities. Personally, I don't care whether homosexuality is nature or nurture. If those people are happy, they can live their lives any way they see fit. It does not harm me at all, and it does not threaten my child at all. I really don't even understand the preoccupation with the issue. As for your coworker kissing his black boyfriend, so what? And why did it make it worse for you that the boyfriend was black? I know that you don't want to offend (and I personally take no offense), but others may. I just hope that you can challenge your preconceptions.
Once my dad got totally gay and fell asleep in the snow. He had to have a toe amputated. Manny, you seem like a great guy and everything... but I think there's a gulf in our 'agreement' on this issue. I long for the day when a kid can be a kid, when a kid can be naive about drugs, sex, famine, etc. Manny, my father was an alcoholic. I'm learning decades after the fact that he did a lot of bad things, apparently including having struck my mother (just hints from grandma, noone will really say and I'm friggin' nearly 30 years old). He also went to jail for stealing a fifth. He spent the early 80s in and out of North Greenville Hospital in South Carolina... trying to recouperate from his alcoholism. In the early and mid 80s I routinely went to Alateen to listen to the probability of us turning into alcoholics, etc. etc. Alcohol can be verrry destructive. I don't think the same can be said of homosexuality... nor should it be. What's inflammatory about being gay? Sexuality doesn't have anything to do with performance on the job or one's ability to be a caring father or caring spouse... being an alcoholic affects all of those things.
Don't get too literal, there, RM95. That is one of the reasons why I stay out of these things for the most part. I could quote something cute like the Bible said "that God created Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve" but I won't. Er...I guess I just did...oh well. Marriage is considered an institution, is it not?.. or at least it was when I took Sociology in high school. However, I don't think the institution of marriage included same sex marriages. If it did then it wouldn't have been a big deal for states to pass a law saying it is okay to have same sex marriages. Cohen, I guess I'm just having a hard time accepting something like this becoming mainstream. I will say that I'm disappointed that more people haven't spoken up other than Refman and ROXRAN and Max (might have been one more..can't remember) about this issue, but that is okay. I understand it is a difficult topic and if it wasn't obvious by now, it's one that I definitely have struggled with. Refman sorta touched on this earlier and I agree with him. I have no problem with what other people do on their own time as long as it doesn't impact me, my family, and friends. I just worry that it will become more than gay pride parades but to the point of being taught in schools - the rights of gays just like the rights of blacks and women. I know that mentioning the fact that this former co-worker of mine's boyfriend being black could get me in trouble; however, you have to realize that I live in what is commonly referred to as the "Bible Belt", so it was a slip on my part. Personally, I don't care about mixed marriages as long as the 2 people love each other. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, and if the way I have presented my opinions have been offensive to people, then I apologize. I have enjoyed the discussion, and hopefully Cohen, Batman, etc. have gotten as much from my side as I have gotten from theirs.
I'm against marriage. . . well . . let me correct that I'm against marriage as a legal entity Marriage in its inception is a religious creation therefore had no place in government. That being said. . . Same Sex Marriages and the like are up to each individual religion . . not the gov. I think the gov should not give special benefits to married folx etc. . should not even be a consideration it is discriminatory against single people. It is a way to 'stear' people to the a religious institution WHICH IS NOT SUPPOSE TO BE IN A SEPERATION FO CHURCH AND STATE. Rocket River
What??? you honestly think marriage steers people towards a religion?? I know a few atheist married couples who might disagree!
