Complaints about the top 8 all wrapped in one post go ahead ancd crusify my comments.

Like who?

 

that noise you just heard was the last shred of your credibility imploding.

 

Dayum. And I had been actually trying to give your argument a chance. Well, that's the end of that.

Oh yeah, he defends the hell out of Mike Bibby, Troy Hudson, Tony Parker, etc.

 

It's about time that he just came right out with his bias against Steve. Now everyone knows he's just a hater, plain and simple.

EXPOSED

 

My question is this (i know your a francis basher) would you trade francis for one of those guys mike? Come on, none of those guys you mentioned are worth steve francis straight up!!

 

It's nice that you have taken a bite of the appetizer but you didn't touch the main course.

Point is that I wouldn't trade Steve Francis for Fisher straight up, but, if I could pick up a PG like Fisher and trade Steve Francis for say Elton Brand I would.

How about reading the whole post before you make assessments on all the parts that are irrelevant.

 

Thats my point, an argument has been made that these guys are better than francis. With that being said you wouldnt trade him straight up for one of them? where is your logic in that? That tells you there not better than he is. Not sure i understand the logic in this thought process if you are saying that they do the pg job a little more efficiently its the system they are put in. In no way are any of those mentioned required to pickup scoring duties for their team. They have a go to guy. However there isn't one on this team. Francis is that guy and the pg. There's your better player.

 

This team has a couple of players who are either now capable of being the go-to guy or will be in the future; Cuttino Mobley and Yao Ming. The problem is that Steve is at best mediocre as a point guard, so they don't get the ball enough, or in a position to do anything with it.

Oh, and I would trade Steve straight up for Jason Kidd and mabye Nash, of those egn listed.

 

why do people always talk about his stats (he's also got the highest TO stats in the league) or how well he scores

watch the games, people try to qualify it as his inability to lead or not being a true pg. when that doesn't work, they try to quantify it in terms of basketball IQ, but people deconstruct it saying it's an abstract unmeasureable thing. there is definitely a combination of things that show he doesn't bring our team to that next level

how can people still believe francis is great for this team while having to pay max... trading for another star + a serviceable pg would definitely have marginal benefit

i'd easily trade him + mobley for comparable and i'd believe we'd have a team that brings a better type of mind/attitude to practices and the floor

 

Damn, that's some high praise, something I haven't heard since joining the board. Thanks Pat.

I agree that championship teams are more than one-dimensional players filling in for each other. But almost inevitably, there is at least one player that specializes in something, the most recent example being last year's Spurs having Steve Kerr strictly for 3-pt shooting. MoT has that sweet little jump hook that he specializes in. That is something that was greatly needed last year, that offensive spark off the bench.

As for the Hawks contrast, I think that's too extreme of a comparison. The Rockets have something the Hawks don't: chemistry. They know and like each other for the most part. And that Hawks team is seriously loaded with just one-dimensional talent. Our team is "complete" enough where having a few one-dimensional players won't hurt. SF, though not a top 5 true PG in many peoples' minds, is top 10 in almost everyone's list as to "complete" guards (minus D of course). Yao Ming is shaping up to be a potent scorer, rebounder, blocker, and passer. Having the second team (or people who play less minutes) be a little less complete and more focused on one aspect of the game isn't a complete detriment. Glen Rice last year played well. MoT contributed greatly.

I know Stevie's rebounding doesn't counteract MoT's lack of getting boards completely, but I remember an analyst for a Rox game saying that because of the guard rebounding (doesn't Cat get like 4 a game too?) the softness of the PF is somewhat diminished. Now granted, I don't think we can win a championship that way. And even though a PF is supposed to get boards, Mo brings to the table above average post play that we don't have in the other forward spots. EG has defense and boards down pat, but his offensive game is still very immature. I guess it's sort of like the "Pike + AG > Posey" argument in a different context. Of course when we get a banger 4 that gets boards and can make shots when needed (a blue collar worker like PJ Brown would be great), I'd start that PF. Mo is our best bet for now, which is still not bad.

I just think that having one player lacking a "complete" game isn't as detrimental as everyone makes it seem. Stevie has a complete game and he gets blasted everyday by the "fans."

 

I'll also say that I agree on the whole. But I'd like to add this:

Upon such thorough dissection of teams such as the Lakers, Spurs, and Mavs; you could come up with just as much criticism. Take a fanatic viewpoint to those teams, and tell me that you couldn't shoot up their starting rotations too.

 

Those of you that think that Parker is overrated...well, you will change your tune the longer that Parker is in the the league.

I don't give Parker full credit for winning the Spurs title. That goes mostly to TD. Don't forget...he helped the Spurs win the tittle in his 2nd season! He's got a long career ahead of him.

He might be overrated in terms of winning a title with TD. But he's not overrated in terms of PG skills at this stage of his career.

 

Because, if years go by, and Francis' game doesn't improve on the turnover and court-vision department, then we can use him as trade-bait. I pity the team that takes that bait. Because they will be getting "flash" without the "substance."

Francis was the 2nd pick in 1999. That's supposed to have an immediate impact on ones team. But four years out, and we are still just a decent team. Not even a very good team. Languishing in Mediocrity.

When I say, immediate impact, I mean like Jordan, like Hakeem, like Magic, like Bird. If Francis is not that good. Well, then why are we thinking that he should be our "go to guy?" Why did we pay him 85 million dollar contract? Why is his court decisions still suspect? How long do we have to wait for our 2nd over-all pick to make a difference? A substantial difference!

Bibby, Arenas, and Snow are PG that have physical limitations. They will never be at the athletic level of Francis. But they make up for this in other ways. That being PG skills, court vision, low turnover ratio, and just an ability to make your team better.

 

ok then how about steve has mental limitations but he makes up for it in other areas, namely athleticism and effort and work ethic. or is only physical ability a gift and you just earn all the rest? i'm sure stockton just decided one day he was gonna read the Big Book of Playing Point Guard and that's how he got so smart. he put the effort into being smart, no way he was just gifted with that. same with kidd, same with magic, same with bibby if you wanna go there. other people no more make up for their physical limitations than steve or anyone does for their mental ones if you wanna be real about it. you can always fine tune each aspect, but most abilities are natural whether you want to admit it or not. most people just like to fawn over the a guy "making the most out of what he was given" as if he wasn't given the brains they are fawning over.

oh and i love how bibby, a #2 pick, made vancouver better all those years. amazing what the most talented roster in the league did for his perception. and arenas, whew. the warriors damn near finished within 2 wins of steve's team last year.

 

Your Jordan comparison suggest that someday that he will become that level a player. Yes? Or no? If you point is that "he's the best we got." Well, that may change. May I also remind you that Jordan did his job. He was a scoring shooting guard. Francis is not doing his job as point guard. Please check Jordan's first 4 seasons in the scoring ranks. Please check Francis's first four seasons in the assist to turnover ranks. If you answer is: He's a combo guard. Well, the PG part of that "combo" isn't very good. If Francis could score 29ppg, then we'd just move him to the 2, and leave it at that. But he's our PG. What do we do? Let him continue to fumble the ball?

As far as your "mental" reply above...

That's very interesting that you bring that up. Because I don't want the following to be true...

Francis: He just doesn't have the brain cells.

No really!!! That's my greatest fear! That he just wont "get it." If that turns out to be true. There's no way in hell that he can be our PG.

Now, I don't think that's going to happen. I think that Rudy just didn't know how to communicate the point guard role to Francis. I mean, think about it. Rudy was a shooting small forward. That was his game. So, maybe we are seeing part of Rudy's game rub off on Francis. Which is the last thing that Francis needed.

By the way, no. I don't think that the athletic part of the game can make up for the mental part. Sure, it can have an effect, but not as the focal point of the team. The leader of any team, should be the "sharpest minded player."

 

I have to make more comments about this. Because I've never looked at this way...I guess I just didn't want to go there. Not because of "bashing" but rather it would suggest too much "hopelessness."

I've always wanted to always see sigs of improvement. Always leave a sign of hope.

Francis 4 Prez, when you talk about "brains" being a "gift" Well, yes. That may be true. See what I'm taking about? It's scary. I don't want that to be true about Francis. Now, it's not as simple as just reading a book, about "How to become a smart point guard." Its a long early development that starts young, with the right mentors and coaches. But if player didn't spend his time doing those "learning" things. Then he may just ride his athletic "gifts" to get him ahead.

Francis has said that he never works out his calves. He said that he just has natural leaping ability. A "gift." Isiah and Stockton, well. They might of just had an ability to listen and learn in college. They just picked up the intricacies of the game faster. Is that a "gift?" Maybe.

Just depends on how you look at it, I guess.

 

Guys, lets get some understanding here.

Twenty years ago, the PG would bring the ball up, tell players where to go, decide which guy to get the ball to then execute the play. Those were pure PG and floor generals.

Today, every play is 100% scripted. They practice them over and over agin. The coach calls the play, the players go to their spots and run the play.

Yetti always say that SF will pass to someone else who would then pass to Yao making the point that SF didn't want to pass to Yao. In reality, Rudy T's play called for passing the ball to a specific guy that Rudy wanted to deliver the entry pass. This was hardly ever Steve because Rudy wanted STeve to be available on the opposite side of the floor in case Yao threw the ball back out.

If Steve was just given the ball and no plays were called and he was told to completely run the offense, then this criticism of him would be fair.

But when you run a TEAM offense, the players go where they are told to go and pass to who they are told to pass to. Only when the play breaks down does anyone just get the ball and make it up as he goes.

 

Derek Fisher a defensive PG?...hahahaha that was a joke right? because steve killed him for 44 last season, Park blew by him, kidd will kill him, marbury would murder him and i'll even say that mooch would have a field day on him.