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Complaints about the top 8 all wrapped in one post go ahead ancd crusify my comments.

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Rocketmike, Oct 4, 2003.

  1. Rocketmike

    Rocketmike Member

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    OK, I have seen several complaints about complainers. "People don't like anyone but Ming". That's not really true. Anytime you get a player with his potential the dynamics of your team are bound to change and so should the expectations. And most of the complaints on the board are at the very least argueable. I mean come on Cat does shoot too many poor shots, Steve isn't really a true pg, Cato hasn't lived up to his potential, Taylor doesn't rebound, and Moochie, well we won't even go there.

    I guess that they have been even more evident with Ming on the floor. How obvious is it now that Cato isn't a legit starting center in the West, or that you need a rebounding PF in this league?

    I'm going to try to make comments on the 8 man rotation and lets see how much flack I can draw.

    Moochie:

    A pg needs to be able to distribute the ball. Not dribble around in circles all day. But thank you for getting the hair cut. I like moochie as a poor man's scottie brooks. Which means JVG should not be forced to play him as much as he does.

    Francis:

    He can score like nobodies business, no question. But he's not a true pg. His assist to turnover ratio was around 1.5-1.6 last year. And that's with throwing the ball down to Ming. That's just not going to get you into the playoffs. He's too small to guard a two, but that's where he should be. We should learn something from the 76ers and go get a defensive minded pg who can distribute and move Steve to the two. But I'll say this, a scoring pg isn't exactly a comodity. And I'm a Francis fan I really do like him as a player, but get this HE IS EXPENDABLE. He's not going to be able to jump out of the building forever, and IMHO, he doesn't seem to have a matured a whole lot. (JVG could change that with his disclipined approach) I looked it up one time and there wern't too many teams in the playoffs who's pg had a sub 2.0 ast/to ratio. If we could get a big pg and move him to the two that would be a dream come true. I'm not saying we can't win with him at the point, I'm just saying we'd be better off with him a the 2.

    Cat:

    He takes too many bad shots. He's not only an underrated defender, he's an underachieving defender. Am I the only one who remembers how he used to play D when he got here? That's all. I'm not calling for him to go unless he's unwilling to be the 6th man, but that's what he should be.

    Rice:

    Well no need to complain any more.

    Griffin:

    He plays soft, and isn't agressive. I havent' given up on him yet.. but lets see, he's going into his third year and he often looks like a deer in headlights out on the court. That's not good fellas. There are times its obvious he has alot of talkent, and usually that is followed by a display of apathy only matched by Cato.

    Taylor:

    Rebounding. Defense. You know these are part of the game too Mo right?. I mean i know injury, weight etc. Rebound. He doesn't like to bang. Is there a center this side of Shaq who has been great without a physical power forward? Go look at rings, I'd say Thorpe was. Look at rings around the league, the PF wasn't necessarily dominant but he bumped and got boards. That's especially important when you start asking your center to carry a signifigant scoring load. Defense. That's another key. I don't think I really need to go into defense.

    Cato:

    Granted he had huge shoes to fill, but there's not much I say to defend him.
    Now if there is one person I could call for to be traded this would be him. I heard him in an interview , I think it was on 610 about 2 years ago say "I don't love basketball like Steve or Cat, I don't play every day in the off season".WHAT? I'm gonna pay you 6.XX million to play a game, you underachieve and then you're gonna tell me you don't play every day in the offseason. He's been a huge dissapointment. He's not a bad back up center.. in fact he's a quality backup center but he's making way too much money. I guess I wouldn't have a problem with it if he wouldn't have said that he didn't really work in the off season. Ever since I heard that I've been disgusted. Say anybody remember Robert Horry lol. Remember how he would make one amazing play, or a have an amazing game, then dissapear? I know its a different position, but yeah you get the idea.

    Ming:

    He's perfect. He walks on water. --- Just kidding.

    Its hard to critisize a guy who's only been in the league one year. A big reason he hasn't drawn much criticism his that he hasn't had a chance not to improve on already impressive numbers. If you've seen that dunk he seems to be more agressive. I guess if I had one complaint it would be his stamina. How are you gonna be the third or fourth best center in the league but have to have the oxygen after 25 mins? Apperantly he looks bigger, He's been more agressive and he learned to scream; Ok I need him to just work that stamina deal. But don't worry, I will dog ming if after 2 or 3 years he's not progressing. And oh by the way, I can see where his schedule has contributed to his stamina problem, tough.. Deal with it, get it fixed, Houston has already dealt with stars who couldn't stay on the court while they're here.


    Hope this breeds some discussion.

    Mike


    Ok 3 quick other notes. 1 I know that they are both ahead of a couple of people on that list but Piatowski and JJ were spared because we have yet to see them in those uni's in a regular season game. 2. Notice we complain about people being overpaid. I think I forgot to mention that in Mooch's section, at some point managment needs to look at that and do something (make better personel decisions) Maloney (cough cough). 3. There are people who will say I'm not loyal, or that I'm not a rockets fan. Fan is short for FANATIC, which would imply that you at least expect the best. At the very least you should be unbiased enough to see the short comings of your team.

    3.5 as i'm reading this. Anybody also notice that defense is a complaint on alot of players. If JVG does his thing like he's supposed to (i'm in a wait and see mode) then maybe half of the complaints against this team dissapear.
     
  2. RunninRaven

    RunninRaven Contributing Member
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    Good post, Mike. I agree with most of your points, so I'll not reply with a quote. One thing I do not agree on is your assessment of Mo Taylor. While Mo will never lead the league in rebounding, I feel his shortcomings there are greatly exaggerated, as is his defensive ability. Mo doesn't block a lot of shots, but his body positioning on defense (especially defending post ups) is at least above average. He is not a bad defender. The rebounding thing doesn't really bother me because Yao is 7'5 and will get plenty of boards while the rest of our team is shaping up to be a decent rebounding squad with JJ, Francis and Mobley all being good to great on the boards. Taylor's weakness there won't really be exploited much, so I'm not worried.

    And as for the accusation that he is afraid, or unwilling to bang inside, well I just take a look at what he does in the paint on offense. He has no problem banging there. That little quick move to the inside followed by the jump hook was damn near unstoppable last season. I don't think he has an unwillingness to bang. I think he just lacks a certain rebounding instinct, and so when he bangs inside it is often fruitless because he is out of position. But again, I don't see this as being a big problem for this team.

    I like your assessment of the rest of the team, although I personally have given up on Griffin being a starting caliber PF. I don't expect him to be amazing or even good at this point in his career, but I did expect some improvement in his second year, and I saw nothing of the sort. In fact, he seemed to have regressed in some areas. I just don't see the desire to get better. I hope he proves me wrong.
     
  3. moestavern19

    moestavern19 Member

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    Adrian bueno
    Senior Eddie El Diablo
     
  4. moestavern19

    moestavern19 Member

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    but on a serious note... the Rockets are going to kick some serious ass this season after they sign Alfred Hitchcock and That guy who married Martha Ray. How does moe know such things? Because... moe is high on PCP.
     
  5. tierre_brown

    tierre_brown Contributing Member

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    I agree with a lot of your post Mike. But I also side with Raven about Mo. I really didn't like him because of his lack of rebounding. All power forwards should be able to rebound; hell, even Dirk, who plays mostly on the perimeter, gets more boards than Mo. However, his offense more than makes up for his lack of rebounding, as does Stevie's 6 boards per game. Besides, Mo's defense is not bad. He gets in position to draw the charge; he gets in position to bump and grind in the post. He doesn't rely on natural talent, he has some good footwork too. Overpaid, yes, but I think on this team he will earn starter's minutes and maybe even finally earn his contract.
     
  6. Rocketmike

    Rocketmike Member

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    Granted its not the NBA or College, but I was an undersized post player in H.S. and I can tell you I would bang with the ball, it was when i was on defense that i had a problem. I would agree with you except that he doesn't overpower people on offense. When you have the ball you can try that or you can catch them leaning or off balance or going the wrong direction and its easy to play physical because especially in the post you should always be on sold ground when your holding the ball.


    Mike
     
  7. FranchiseRules

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    Give Stevie Franchise a break.
    Asist to turnover ratio will only be strong if your team can follow through for you after you pass the rock!
    How many times did Stevie pass the ball to Cato only to watch him miss the dunk?!?!?(I'll bet that was close to once every game!!) Cato is a much stronger defensive player than a scorer.
    Also the Rockets as a team had one of their worst year as far as shooting percentage since Stevie has been there. I dont know how many times he passed only to watch some miss an open shot!
     
  8. TheHorns

    TheHorns Member

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    On Francis I agree with most of what you are saying but I strongly disagree with this statement.

    Unless they can find a PG who is 6'5" or better with defensive skills to shut down a SG it won't work.

    If Jason Willams has a career night every time Francis is guarding him, jusr imagine what will happen when he faces the 2's he will face (just in the West ) night in and night out the likes of Spreewell, Ginobli, Maggette, Finley, Kobe, Christie, Ray Allen etc.

    Those guys will be going off for 50 a night!
     
  9. Yetti

    Yetti Contributing Member

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    Cato and Mobley were the only ones to receive passes from the Franchise on a consistant basis. Franchise made few passes directly to Yao Ming, if you go to your video you will notice that on many occasions Steve passes to another player who then passed to Yao Ming. Mobley almost refused to pass to Yao Ming! Now its upto JVG to take charge and sort it all out.
     
  10. Williamson

    Williamson JOSH CHRISTOPHER ONLY FAN
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    While I agree that Francis's assist to turn over ratio is a good point to criticize him on and a legitimate complaint, I get sick of hearing "He isn't a true point guard.".

    Just take a look around the league. I don't think there are more than five "true" point guards starting in the league. Though everytime this is brought up people throw out names like Jason Williams. Granted the guy looked alright last year but why did Sacramento get rid of him? They wanted a true point guard. Alvin Williams? Get the hell out of here. There is no way that guy isn't a tweener. Jason Terry LOVES to shoot but somehow people always talk about getting him to be our "true" point guard. Hell, on occasion people would actually seriously bring up Rafer Alston's name. (and of course to some of your credit that person would be immediately flamed, but regardless). Honestly, when I think of starting point guards last season that I'd consider true point guards I think John Stockton, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash and maybe Tony Parker? That's about all that comes to mind. It isn't a very long list.

    It seems the fans of every team always want two things that don't exist or barely exist:

    1. true point guards - which are about as common as Komodo Dragons these days. They're near extinct.
    2. a big man capable of containing Shaq- As easily found as Bigfoot. Actually, maybe if you found Bigfoot, he could do it.


    All in all, I'm just glad we have a guard as talented as Steve Francis. I'm not going to worry about what kind of guard he is. I'll leave figuring out how to deal with his weaknesses to Van Gundy.
     
  11. Williamson

    Williamson JOSH CHRISTOPHER ONLY FAN
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    Oh and Rocketmike, I forgot to say that despite any points I disagree with you on it was a great post and good criticism.
     
  12. Pat

    Pat Contributing Member
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    Nothing personal TB,( I enjoy and respect your posts) but I really disagree with this statement. There are a lot of teams that seem to have pretty good players (Hawks come to mind - Terry is good, Ratliff, great defensive player, SAR, we are drooling after him, Big Dog , can light it up, Nazer Mohamad has potential) but lose all the time. Their problem is the good players are one dimensional. Good at only one thing.

    On the championship teams, it seems to me that all the players are decent at everything, and often very good at one thing (Fisher, Horry Fox). Their overall game means there are no holes for the opponents to exploit.


    Specifically on Taylor. I havn't been able to stand the guy since he whined his way off the Clips. During his injured off season when he couldn't even play, he still hurts his team by getting a five game suspension for next year. And his statements after the grand jury make him sound like a spoiled brat who thinks he is entitled to everything.

    That being said, I give him a chance this year. I do like his offense, I have seen him make a few exceptional defensive swithches, ( well ok 2 in 3 years, but still they were impressive) and he certainly has the body to board. I believe that Van Gundy can light a fire under his ass, and may turn him into a player who deserves that contract.
     
  13. egn

    egn Member

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    Chauncey Billups
    Eric Snow
    Tony Parker
    Steve Nash
    Troy Hudson
    Jason Williams
    Mike Bibby
    Derrick Fisher


    That's more than 5 by my count. All of which are BETTER point guards than Steve Francis. Maybe not as talented but ALL ARE DEFINITELY BETTER PGs!!
     
  14. egn

    egn Member

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    damn you no-edit!!!!!!!


    and Jason Kidd
     
  15. dbigfeet

    dbigfeet Member

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    Bibby, Billips, Parker, and maybe Nash are better PG but the rest???????? No way, no how, not in this lifetime.
     
  16. Williamson

    Williamson JOSH CHRISTOPHER ONLY FAN
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    Troy Hudson is another fine example of a point guard with a scorers mentality that doesn't deserve to be called a true point guard. He did a decent job of playing that role last year but that's one season. Also, again, I just don't see how Jason Williams can qualify for this list. He's Pistol Pete reincarnated (albeit less talented)

    Eric Snow is a good one I over-looked. Mike Bibby as well. Derrick Fisher I'll give you but I'm not sure I think he deserves to be a starting point guard. I also think it's pretty easy to have a nice collection of assists when you're passing to Shaq and Kobe every night.
     
  17. Williamson

    Williamson JOSH CHRISTOPHER ONLY FAN
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    I hate that there is no edit feature right now. heh.

    Also, even if all 9 of those are a given (including your addition of Jason Kidd) that's 9 out of 30 teams. That's still a rare beast.

    I'll also go ahead and say that T.J. Ford will probably be added to that list after this season. (assuming he's successful in the league) Still, that's 10 true point guards out of 30 teams. a 1/3rd ration and I really think it's closer to 7 or 8 true point guards.
     
  18. SLA

    SLA Member

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    At least Cato is honest! :D

    Chauncey Billups? What is a point guard supposed to do? Is there a perfect point guard?!?

    Billups doesn't do anything...except shoot 3's. He does that very well though. He barely drives inside. He just takes jumpers outside off of screens and picks. I don't see how he is better than Francis. You would rather have Billups instead of Francis on our team? Francis could easily be like Billups and hold the ball all day and jack up 3 pointers. But yes...Billups is very good at doing that.

    Snow....uhh...I would rather have Francis instead of Snow. Snow is more of a pure point guard than Steve I guess...but Steve is a better overall player.

    Parker...TIM DUNCAN! I like Parker even though he is OVERRATED!

    Now I love Nash. Of course he has Michael Finley and Dirk Nowitzki and the most of the rest of his team can shoot from behind the arc. He's great at setting people up. He isn't that athletic but he makes awesome passes and is a great 3 point shooter and free throw shooter. Pure point guard indeed, eh?!?

    Hudson really doesn't do much...he is sort of like Billups...they just shoot 3's all day. They are both good at it though. Hudson is very lucky to have KG...and now they got Cassell and Sprewell and Olowokandi. NBUDI EBI too!

    Jason Williams gets a ton of assists...I think he's a better point now than Steve. But our team was better than theirs last year so it's okay if Williams is better as a point than Steve. :)

    Derrick Fisher??!? All right. FIsher is probably a better role playing point guard!

    But you want Francis to transform into a Derrick FIsher?!? And waste all of his offensive scoring abilities and talent?!? Just want him to dump it to Yao? I don't think Steve will ever be able to run a motion offense...he's a 1/2 guard!

    I do agree that Francis needs to get more assists and less turnovers.

    21 points/7 assists/5 rebounds/2 turnovers per game would be all right. I really don't care about his stats!!! ALL I WISH FOR IS WINS!!!
     
  19. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    Guess what: Half those guys don't even give out as many assists as Francis. Billups, Parker, Hudson are known as being scorers.
    Fisher is a useless scrub who gets 3 assists a game with the two best scorers in the league, arguably, on his roster.

    You've devalued your opinion to new depths with that one.

    You're obviously just bashing Francis for kicks at this point so I'm not going to humor you any longer.
     
  20. egn

    egn Member

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    Don't you realize that it's NOT all about numbers!!!

    The ability to get teammates involved and run an efficient offense does not always show up in the assist department. These two things I would consider more important than the amount of assists when defining the role of a point guard.

    It's easily explained when Steve Francis averages 6 assists per game but seemingly get no teammates involved and does NOT run an efficient offense.

    So would I rather have Derrick Fisher than Steve Francis?

    Yes!!

    He knows his role and plays within his own game for one. Two, he is one hell of a defensive PG. And three, with the money that I will save, I can use it to get a better SG or a strong PF.
     

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