Oh, and btw... Communism CANNOT be a political system. Communism entails the obliteration of the state in any form. The Soviet Union was a totalitarian regime that operated according to certain economic principles that resembled communism. ------------------ I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001
btw: In order to back my statements, and actually show Rimbaud he is not the intellectual master he claims to be...(I am too 100% correct in this thread you dufus)...I am gathering some more objective history of Lenin and Dr. Sun, starting with their writings and Mao's, that I used in several research papers back in the day. ...plus Chiang Kai-Shek and how he subjugated Formosa. Chiang Kai-Shek was a stupid ass, make no mistake! Personally, I really admire Lenin and Dr. Sun and read a lot of Marx...back in the day. I admire the purest approach the intelligencia took in both Russia and China in an effort to take their countries out of feudal rule. Sorry, for the rapid-fire argument with Jim, don't take it personal Jim, I happen to enjoy challenges of rapid fire memory games, but if you really want to read what I feel is enlightening on this subject, start with this, which took me a while to run down. <a href="http://www.formosa.org/betrayed/front.htm">Formosa Betrayed</a> Note: although this is www.formosa.org and might seem recent anti-Chiang Kai-Shek given they were under marshal law for 40 years, this work above is detailed and highly regarded in its day as historical record about a massacre in Formosa by Chiang Kai-Shek's governor even before Chiang was ousted. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited April 10, 2001).]
My above link to the work "Formosa Betrayed" is the concise Preface. Here is the chapter describing the massacre. <a href="http://www.formosa.org/~taiwanpg/chap14.htm">The March Affair, 1947</a> Remember, this happened in 1947, before Chiang lost power in mainland China. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited April 10, 2001).]
heypartner, I never said you were not 100% right, I lumped both of you together...Jim was right about an early, non-communist, uprising that took power away from the emperor. That may not have been the final ousting as jim claimed, but that part was right. You were right about the other historical issues. Thus, together, you were both right on some things. The problem was that the complex history of China, along with the "foreign" mindset involved makes it imposible for sound-bite, political rhetoric-styled debate very difficult. I think that was causing the "you are a liar" -- and worse -- statements to be issued. Intellectual mastery still intact. I am just upset because the vast majority of my posts were not countered. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
Rimmy, And I intend to challege this very minor point to score my 100%. So, how do you like the description of the honorable Chiang's massacre of his island before he even moved there?
rimbaud, don't lie. lol! haven, you're the new bad ass on the board. kbm, could you please summarize the points that Jim and (heyp and rimbaud) made and tell me why you think that Jim made better points? Though I oftentimes disagree with you, I enjoy your coherent non-inflammatory posts. BTW, if you weren't conservative, I believe that you'd notice that Jim started the mud-slinging first... as a matter of fact, in his first post. ------------------ It only costs $180.00 to have a couple of mullets yell in your ear.
Actually this was the first name calling post and it was about the 5th or 6th post in this thread. Some of you baited Jim just like you routinely bait others. Too bad Jim hasn't caught on yet. ------------------ The ox is slow but the Earth is patient.
I learned long ago that my post count preceeds intelf, and I have to do headfakes of heypocrasy to get people to jump! Once they jump, it is easy to haul in the responses. You, you Intellectual Master...you...couldn't get any responses, because the conservatives fear your game, and you never exposed the ball for them to reach for. While I moved into my FIRST hangout debate this year, bobbing and weaving and exposing the ball....leaving you to chase down Jim in my aftermath.
kbm, I too enjoy your underdog objectivity, although I don't really read Hangout's that much. As for this topic, give this a read and tell me if you still think Jim is right that we must uphold our Treaty with the non-Evil Empire that set up camp in Formosa...otherwise we "dishonor" them. <a href="http://www.formosa.org/~taiwanpg/chap14.htm">The March Affair, 1947</a>
I feel so much better now that haven has reassured me that even though Chinese officials are on the record about inevitable war and bombing Los Angeles, we will never have a nuclear war with China. If you're wrong haven I'll expect you to address this issue again! ------------------ The ox is slow but the Earth is patient.
heyp, This is from a description of Pu-yi's autobiography, From Emperor to Citizen (tr. by W. J. F. Jenner, 1964–65); study by H. McAleary (1963).: After his abdication, the new republican government granted him a large government pension and permitted him to live in the Forbidden City of Beijing until 1924. At one point, he was released from power by a republican uprising...then in '24 he was ousted by the killer kommies. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
Timing, Did you read the full quotes with context I posted early in this discussion? They were completely defensive and only a "If uses does "A," then "B" will follow. "In other words, if you keep threatening us, we will respond in kind." The Chinese are a very proud people with a civilization that goes back thousands of years...they are not about to start a nuclear war...beginning their own destruction. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
Rimmy, I know where that comes from; you don't have to teach me. All I can really do is compare Dr. Sun's words to Lenin to convince you, since they both were the leaders of their respective revolutions. I'll leave you with this as I hunt down my copy of the original "The People's Three Principles" and the Dr. Sun's revised interpretation after he overthrew a challenge. I'll leave you with this: Stalin said Lenin was not a Communist, too! The words "Communism, Nationalism, Socialism and Democracy" are painted is several ways during those two revolutions.
Timing, in the starting post of this thread, Jim casts for responses: 1) Now, Democrats are once again forced to point fingers at historical figures because they cannot defend their position. Jim lumps all Democrats together on this single topic. Interesting, since there are republicans responding in this thread that consider Jim to be a weirdo. 2) Thanks Liberals, the new Cold War has begun, and we have Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and the money grubbing Democratic National Committee to thank for the current situation. Jim draws yet another line between Liberals and Conservatives. This is clearly an attack. 3) Today's Democrats remind me of children who, when they get in trouble for misbehaving, yell to their Mommys, "all the other kids do it tooooooooooooooooooooo (waaaaaaaaaah)!" I don't even know what to say about this one. The funniest thing about this quote is that Jimbo resorted to the baby wah wah technique of calling heypartner a 'liar', 'moron', etc. Did you not see these Timing, or b/c you agreed w/ it did you just take it for granted? ------------------ It only costs $180.00 to have a couple of mullets yell in your ear.
lol Jimbo, you fraud!!! You rock! ------------------ It only costs $180.00 to have a couple of mullets yell in your ear.
People generalize about parties and philosophies all the time. We've always had the "pansy liberal" and "gun toting conservative" labels thrown around here. When someone is calling you a paranoid, deluded, crack using troll, well that's a different story wouldn't you agree? BTW, why do you excuse the Chinese for these statements? Would you be as dismissive if it were Cheney saying if China does not change it's pattern of civil rights violations, war is inevitable? He would be getting ripped right and left as should any elected government official who says something that stupid. ------------------ The ox is slow but the Earth is patient.
Timing: The difference is that China is speaking to an outside audience. China isn't democratic, and there isn't much accountability. The government really doesn't have to justify its own actions. If Cheney made that statement, the people would have a right to reject it... which is why he never would. Therefore, they make a lot of statement sto their own people that sounds absolutely crazy to send other countries a message. Look, nobody LIKES the current government. They're somewhat belligerent, autocratic, and none too friendly with the United States. On the other hand, they're not likely to provoke major retaliation any time soon. These are just political games. China knows that its interests lie in international trade and engagement with the US. Engagement will lead to reforms and democtatization. Paranoid rhetoric, if nothing else, is going to confirm Chinese suspicions of America. We *deserve* some of their suspicions. Our foreign policy has been abominable during the 20the century in many respects. Americans like to think of themselves as saviors (including me). We saved Europe in two wars, saved them again with the Marshall plan, defeated Japan and democratized it. Bleh bleh bleh... "shining city on a hill," etc. But we've also propped up fascist autocratic regimes because it was good for business, extorted resources from developing countries, attempted to overthrow legitimate governments, and imposed economic sanctions on nations that only hurt the people. Look at what we did with the Shah in Iran... HORRIBLE! I might hate us too if I lived in a developing country. Paranoid cultural bigotry sucks. ------------------ I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001
Rimbaud, he abdicated his throne in 1912. Even though the Chinese allowed him to live there, he was no longer Emperor. "These past few days have been very interesting. My next alias will come from a completely different point of view, and I hope to learn even more. Regards, Bob Rainey" My GOD! He could be one of us... suspicion towards all newbies! Don't let him return unflamed! We must suspect, and terrorize anybody not like us! *peers around at the rest of the board through paranoia tinged glasses*. We have a new enemy! ------------------ I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001 [This message has been edited by haven (edited April 10, 2001).]
