oops, my womb is wounded. Anybody that doesn't want to turn into a McDonald's outlet feels the same way. Yet, Jim1965 focuses on China b/c: 1) He's a xenophobe. 2) China has nuclear technology. Just goes to show that you'd better be ready to use peaceful talks as diplomacy later on when your friends get a few toys. Remember cake boy, nobody likes a bully. ---edit: Just read heypartner and rimbaud's posts. Bravo heyp! You should hang out in the... uh, hangout more often! [This message has been edited by Achebe (edited April 10, 2001).]
We have a treaty to defend Taiwan if Red China tries to take the island by force. What you are proposing is that we turn our backs on Taiwan, and break our promise to the capitalist island. You are proposing that we allow the children of Taiwan to become slaves of a Stalinist system of government, stripping a generation of their hard earned rights. You also don't understand that Taiwan (though we begrudgingly accept the flawed "One China Policy"), was the refuge of the rightful government of China when Mao took over the country. Taiwan's government is not the renegade, rather it is the other way around. People like the emperor of China have an very long history of maintaining status quo. The Chinese have reiterated time and again their intention of attacking Taiwan. This is certainly not status quo, so your statement is false. The sleeping giant is not Stalinist, because Stalin was a lunatic dictator. What would you call running over pro-Democracy students with tanks and armored vehicles? Does that fit your definition of "lunacy"? You scare me...not the Chinese. Because you want let China deal with their own problems in a manner consistent with their history...you want to press the issue and protect a freaking island of political refugees, who want to die for their cause anyhow. Once again, you show a complete lack of understanding of the treaties that our government is currently BOUND TO ENFORCE. The people you call political refugees are the decendants of those who fought Mao and his immoral communists. You dishoner them with your ignorance. ------------------ Bob Rainey is my hero!
Jim: I refer you to Robert Ross's treatment of the China situation. He's written quite a bit about it. China blusters, but they're not going to do anything. Their military spending totals about 35 billion dollars... TOPS. That includes all the "hidden money." Their real defense investment is probably lower than that. (Ross, Mazzar) If you count our hidden defense numbers, we spend far more than 300 billion dollars per year on defense. (CBO) China has an ICBM nuclear arsenal of THIRTY WARHEADS. That's it. The United States has more than 1000. (US Quadrennial Defense Review, Donald Hafner, PhD) China's economy will not pass that of the united states until 2050, at the earliest (The Economist) The best way to prevent a true threat with China is engagement. China is rising economically. This will create a bourgeoisie, which will inevitably eventually demand political rights. China will then become a democracy, and as we all know, democracies don't go to war with each other. Not once since the inception of democracy. Besides, even if China does become a true global rival... that could be agood thing. A bi-polar world is far more stable than a multi-polar land, which is what we're headed for right now. THat's because there are fewer possible dyads of conflict (John Mearsheimer). The world was a remarkably war-free place during the Cold War... contrary to popular belief. Realist, or Huntingtonesque civilization-based, thought such as you advance is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If the United States acts as an imperialist pre-emptive hegemon, China is going to be an antagonist. If we engage them in international institutions, and economic exchange, everything will be fine. BTW, Clinton's policy towards China did NOT differ substantially from the previous Bush administration. Both wanted China to have MFN, and general cooperation. So far Shrub's policies haven't differed either. THere's no evidence that campaign contributions changed anything (unlike Bush and the oil industry). Don't be paranoid. You're just going to create enemies for yourself. BTW, it's easy to find demagogue quotes. I could quote you to the Chinese, and they'd be terrified. Oh, and American imperialism during the Cold War is also reminiscent of the term "evil empire." ------------------ I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001 [This message has been edited by haven (edited April 10, 2001).] [This message has been edited by haven (edited April 10, 2001).]
What is your point with this statement, and how does it pertain to the discussion? ------------------ Bob Rainey is my hero!
You are the one who mentioned age, and you not be draftable, and naive youth getting what we deserved. What was the point of that? In that context, I thought I'd tell you that I can't be drafted either, and simply want to know if you are a veteran. And then yes, I'll use your answer to stereotype you as an armchair military strategist who assumes liberals are not veterans.
Immoral communists? Come on... I agree that communism didn't really work purely. But they certainly weren't immoral. Look at the Scandinavian countries... they're not red, but they're certainly pink... and EXTREMELY successful. ------------------ I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001
lol! I know those sorts of args. are tangential, but you're the first conservative on the board to figure it out. Do you disagree w/ most of the top military minds that peaceful diplomacy will change China? I'm all for sticking our little noses into places that it doesn't belong... but there are some beasts unlike others. For example, the field trip to Iraq wouldn't go over to well in China. ------------------ It only costs $180.00 to have a couple of mullets yell in your ear.
Thank you Heypartner. I take it your answer is to turn our backs on our friends. You opt to break our promise to people who are willing to die for their freedom. You choose the path of allowing tyranny to flourish in the world, as long as you don't have to be bothered. You have learned NOTHING from history. ------------------ Bob Rainey is my hero!
Who cares how much China spends on defense? They ONLY have 30 ICBM's, damn that won't do anything because we have over 1000. We laugh at your piddly 30! I'm no rocket scientist but any Communist nation with a piddly 30 ICBM's is certainly something to be concerned about. I guess maybe when one of those puppies lands on LA some will say damn we should have paid a little better attention or something. I also find it funny that some of you are choosing to attack Jim. First some of you said his quotes on the Chinese were false and then when he gave you the sources you chose to mock the quotes. And none of you are responding to the fact that Clinton left the doors open for the Chinese to cherry pick nuclear technology at will. Why don't we just invite them over to tour the Pentagon while we're at it? What's the going rate for that in a Clinton presidency? ------------------ The ox is slow but the Earth is patient.
Haven, your cultural reletivism here makes me sad. Some ideologies are evil, like communism and nazism. You should never compare the American experience to either. ------------------ Bob Rainey is my hero!
We really can't blame Jim here. Extremists are unhappy unless they have someone to point a finger at and call a badguy. That's what happens when you think that reality is one big John Wayne movie. ------------------ "Blues is a Healer" --John Lee Hooker
Jim, don't you think you are being a little naive about the Taiwan "treaty". That is a puppet government of dissidents that we created when we stole Taiwan from China increase our military influence in the region. It is not like the emperor fled to Taiwan in exile from tyranny nor anything. Sure the dissidents are our friends, but so is "Red" China and that tyrannist emperor of their's who hasn't changed his ways in centuries. That rat b*stard...ooooh, I want to punch him.
The coming war will be conventional, and it will be fought in the South China Sea and on the island of Taiwan. The vastly improved Chinese nuclear argument is relevant because it will protect them from any attack on the mainland. Get ready to ship out boys. ------------------ Bob Rainey is my hero!
What does it take for a country to be a "bad guy"? How about slaughtering it's citizens? Forced abortions? Holding American hostages? The worst civil rights record in the world? Does any of that qualify? ------------------ The ox is slow but the Earth is patient.
You better stick to basketball HeyP, because you have no idea what you are talking about. The leader of China before Mao DID flee from mainland China from the Communists. The United States has no role in propping up that government. Red China is holding our airmen hostage, so they are not our friends. Why do you waste your time making up facts when you can go read a book and get the truth? ------------------ Bob Rainey is my hero!
Timing, I don't think anyone's trying to give China a plaque for humanitarian accomplishments. ------------------ It only costs $180.00 to have a couple of mullets yell in your ear.
Jim, You need to start looking out for headfakes!!! The last emperor of China (P'u Yi) did not move to Taiwan. He was ousted by Japan and sent to Russian under house arrest. See what our Western wars can do. That great period of Western destabilization is what allowed Mao to grab control of an emperor-less, dynasty-less China. Taiwan is a puppet govt. established by us to control that Sea. Even with Mao and all his "theoretical changes" the civil servant structure of China and the rule of govt is not really changing much like you'd seem to imply. There is no more tyranny than any change of Dynasty in the course of China's history. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited April 10, 2001).]
