This is really getting ridiculous... do you guys know how hard it is to have a sub 4 ERA in this day and age? Astros fans are SPOILED by Oswalt and Clemens... who were both top THREE pitchers each of the last two years.
Woody Williams and Andy Pettite is NOT a wash... that may be the most ridiculous thing you've said since your Dan Langhi ephiphany. Check out when was the last time Woody even threw 200 innings in a season... who the hell is going to pick up for him when he doesn't pitch all those games over the next TWO years?
Allow me to interject... How did they piss Andy off? Was it not Andy that said: 1. He is contemplating retirement? What should the Astros do? Beg and plead for him to come back all the while do absolutely NOTHING at the winter meetings? 2. His reasoning on signing with Houston in the first place was to be closer to his family AND to finally play for the team that he grew up with (to something of that extent)? If Pettitte gets in a tiff because the Astros were proactive in replacing him at the winter meetings than he obviously is one sensitive SOB. You can't hold an organization under your grasp like that unless the back of your jersey reads "Clemens" (part sarcasm/part sad truth). There were pitchers out there. Not necessarily top echelon but comparative to Andy's production AND they were younger. Heck, if there weren't, the Astros tried to trade for one. I'm pretty sure it was a payroll move. Once you factor in Oswalt's extended contract and then Berkman's and Lee's contracts, that's a lot of money to be spreading around 3 players. And not wanting Lee because you "know how the Astros think" is kind of funny because you're basing a lot of what you're posting on assumptions and personal beliefs. The Astros might have worked in their own budget, but why would they go out and try to trade for a $12 mil pitcher? "Because they didn't want to pay my friend Andy $14 mil" Um..either way they were willing to fork over money. Who knew that Pettitte would have gotten that sizable of a pay raise after a ho-hum 3 year performance?
Looks like Astros did Piss Andy off because 1010 WINS in New York reporting this morning the reason why Andy chose the Yankees over the Astros was because he felt insulted with Houston going after Garland from the White Sox. The Trash talking has begun. I'm sure Roger is probably headed towards NY as well.
What is it exactly that Andy can do that Williams cannot? Pettite's got a career 3.8 ERA (4.2 in 06) and 1.35 WHIP (1.4 in 06). Williams last season had a 3.65 ERA, and a career 4.1. His career WHIP of 1.3 was the same last season. I don't think he's going to be as good as he was last season, but then again he won't need to be to replace Pettite's mediocre 2006 production.
Well, for starters, he's 40 years old and doesn't pitch many innings or stay healthy. The last four years, Williams has pitched fewer and fewer innings, with a fantastic total of 159 and 145 the last two years. Pettitte has pitched 222 and 214 the past two years. Second, has Woody Williams EVER been in the class of best-pitchers-in-the-game? In 2005, Pettitte was one of the top few pitchers in the NL. Last year, he closed on a tear and showed that same form. Each of those years, he was ridiculously good after the ASB (1.7 and 2.8 ERAs) which is slightly critical if you want to win in the postseason. He provides a ton of postseason experience that no one else outside of maybe Smoltz has. Not to mention Pettitte is a lefty and gives teams a whole different look and is far more dominant in terms of strikeout rates.
He needs to take the ball EVERY 4th day (like Pettite has basically done the last two years), and give the team a quality start (like Pettite has in the majority of his starts). As much as you guys are underrating Pettite, you're severely OVERrating Woody Williams. He's a good #4 guy... but not a #2.
He is gone....signed with the Yankees, and I think his heart was not in it all of last year. I would rather see some of our young guys develop around Oswalt & Williams. Of course, that means we need to fix up the bullpen ! DD
Here's all I'm saying. I like Andy Pettitte but during last year's first half he was as bad as anyone in baseball. That's not a wise $8 million investment for a guy who's not sure if he wanted to pitch. If the player option was no big deal and he would've 'turned it down' if he'd been hurt, then why not go for just consecutive one year deals at $14 mill? ***Nobody here actually buys the whole 'I wouldn't have taken the money if I had gotten hurt' thing do they? Seriously? The MLB union? If you do, there's a Comets board somewhere around here.*** And also, I did say who I wanted to trade for. I want Jake Peavy. Drayton said they'll get a #2 and they will. He'll throw 200 innings and he'll be fine. Andy was nobody special, let's be honest. I DO NOT want to trade a Luke Scott for some old Baltimore inning eating pitcher. As for the homers, I do get that Taylor gave up HR's. He's also like 24 and he's a rookie not 34 and a veteran. At some point, we have to see what we have in these guys. If they're going to pitch 200 innings then at some point in time we have to try and pitch them 200 innings. Fernando Nieve threw 100 innings in limited time last year but you're telling me HE CAN NOT THROW 200? Why not? If he can, play him. The problem here is what again? My MAIN point with that is a guy like Nieve has electric stuff so much so that he's mentioned as maybe becoming a closer - so does Buch and Hirsh. If you've got a kid who has that stuff, is young, has shown signs of having a high ceiling, has a low ERA and low WHIP already at 24, then why not let him play? Well, (In my best whiny voice) Pettitte is good in the postseason. Oh really? His ERA is over 4 - WOW! Unhittable! AWESOME!!! If we had been to as many playoffs as the Yanks then he would've done that for us. He ate innings yes and now he's 34. BTW - Sampson? He can pitch too. He may be a middle innings guy but they were moving him to start in the minors. All I'm saying is we b**** and moan about not calling up our young guys and then we whine when we think they'll have to pitch instead of having the 'awesome' Andy Pettitte out there. Does seriously no one remember the talk shows saying Andy was throwing as bad as any NL pitcher and they may have to skip him in the rotation? He was TERRIBLE for the first half last year. That would've been $8 million lost right there...and Fernando Nieve can't throw 150-200 innings? Maybe we should think about our own foundation for the long run instead of selling the farm for a 5.00 ERA Jennings type of guy who had ONE year that was OK. As for Carlos Lee - I love it. He just turned 30 and can kill it. Good for the Astros! See ya in the Crawford boxes...
Your point about innings is a good one. Pettite's going to start more games than Williams. You're going to get 30+ starts from Pettite if he stays healthy, while Williams will probably give you more like 25. But per start, Williams and Pettite both give you 6 innings. Both are like Clemens, rather than Oswalt, who consistantly gives you 7. But is pitching 8 more starts and about 50 innings worth 28 million over the next 2 seasons? The postseason thing, though, is overrated. Pettite's got a career postseason ERA over 4. He's got a great career record in the playoffs because of that Yankee offense, but he was 1-1 with 2 no decisions and a 4.3 ERA during the Astros playoff run. What happened to all that 2nd half momentum? Brandon Backe provided as much or more when the postseason came around.
Its not that Williams doesn't pitch well when he's out there... its that he WON'T be out there every fourth day for the entire season. Thus, you're putting those other 50 innings in the hands of a fill-in starter (such as Wandy), and you have to live with what that guy can give you on nights where Woody can't pitch. Sure, its not worth 28 million... but neither is Gill Meche at 45 million, or Carlos Lee at 100 million. NOBODY is really worth what they're getting this off-season; we shouldn't use that as a reason why we don't need Pettite now. Also, I'll still take Pettite in those other 50 innings simply because he's a quality lefty who still gives you a chance to win more often than not (over Woody's replacement).
Williams the last two years (innings/game): 5.70, 6.05 Pettitte: 6.73, 6.12 Oswalt: 6.90, 6.89 Even in a down year for Pettitte (when he was being pulled for performance) and an up year for Williams, Pettitte pitched more innings per game. The 2005 year was far more pronounced with Pettitte pitching an extra inning per game. Pettitte is no Oswalt, but he's not Williams either in terms of stamina. He gave up 2, 2, 3, and 5 runs in his 4 postseason starts that year. The 5 runs was in the St. Louis game when he got nailed in the leg in warmups by Oswalt and couldn't push off on his leg the whole game. His other game against St. Louis was the Lidge HR game that we led 4-2 in the 9th inning. The game against the White Sox, we led 4-2 when he left and the bullpen blew up. Let's not act like he didn't pitch ridiculously well for us in the playoffs.
Compare this, by the way, to Woody Williams' postseason starts against the Cardinals the last two years: 2005: 1.2 innings, 5 runs 2006: 5.1 innings, 4 runs In 2004, he had 4 postseason games where he was wildly inconsistent, pitching a 1 hitter against us (the great Backe game) and giving up 2 runs another time, while also giving up 4 runs and then a dismal 2.1 inning, 7 run performance. Like Nick said, he's a 3 or 4 starter, not a 1 or 2. You're not going to get consistent quality production out of him.
Doc you keep talking about his horrible first half, but dont mention Pettite's second half at all, when he was pretty sick, with an ERA of 2.7 I believe after the All-Star Break. And last year, surprisingly, was also his healthiest year as an Astro. Even the first half when he stunk, I actually thought he had good stuff, his fastball was actually reaching 92, and his cutter and curve were effective. He just made a lot of bad pitches in the first half, as if almost thinking that since I'm healthy I can just blow my stuff by hitters........he corrected this in the second half, and started <i>pitching </i> again, and the results were awesome............ I think he's worth most of the money, if for nothing else, then because of the new market. Meche is going to get 11 a year, Ted Lilly shall get 10......Schmidt for 16! Also, he's a true 2nd starter, unlike Garland or Jennings.........and why even mention Peavy, he's a pipe dream. I think even San Diego already said they wont trade him. They y bring him up?? I'm not saying we should have given him 32 mil, or that what we did was wrong, but lets face it, we lost quite a stud here. At the same time, I am glad that we speeded up the process, and let Andy know early, that we were not gonna fall for his BS and kept pursuing someone else meanwhile....LIke I said, Andy would probably have left anyways, but lets not just talk about his bad half last year, and forget about the good half, plus all of 2 yeas ago, when he got I believe pitcher of the year for the Astros over Clemens <b> and </b> Oswalt.......
pettitte wasnt very good last year but this doesnt minimze the hole left in our rotation. our only reliable starters will be roy o and ww. after them is who? hirsch, buckholz, wandy, backe, nieve... all question marks in terms of reliability and consistency. 14 mil isn't too much for a veteran lefty like pettitte. he got paid 16+ mill last year and there's always a premium on pitchers. however, it's not like pettitte cant be replaced and if purp goes out and gets garland or jennings we'll quickly forget about him and this thread will disappear.
