Langhi is not flashy because he can't do that famous windmill dunk ------------------ President of the Steve Francis, Jamal Crawford,Larry Hughes, and Charles Woodson fan club.
Well, a poster asked for something to back up negative opinions on Collier, and I provided that. Not anecdotal evidence based upon a few individual games, but stats which show he is a poor rebounder, poor shooter, not a shot blocker, not a passer, and gets no steals. Other than that, though, he's got game. Soft hands, yes. And soft everything else. I'll stick with my original assessment until someone has more than personal opinion and garbage time to back up their claims. Collier was a shooter in college, and I see little reason to think he will be anything other than a shooter in the league, if he accomplishes that. At $300,000 a year on a two year contract, he would be a good deal. Right now he is a million dollar plus a year liability. ------------------
Cat- You said you were impressed that Collier had 3-4 good games when he was healthy. Remember when Cato had 2 good games his 1st year (Cleveland pre-season & the LA game where he blocked Shaq a couple of times). Now I'm not comparing Collier's work ethic to Cato's but don't get excited about a couple games. Collier is a career backup. He may be somewhat effective but I expect much more out of a lottery pick. Again I am happy to have the extra 1st round pick, but Collier will never be anything more than a role player.
Not anecdotal evidence based upon a few individual games, but stats which show he is a poor rebounder, poor shooter, not a shot blocker, not a passer, and gets no steals. Other than that, though, he's got game. You are going by season evidence, and a good portion of the games he played in he had that bad knee and was not near 100%. And if you even watched the Rockets this year, you'd know that in those games I made reference to Collier played very valuable minutes in close games (with one exception), so don't even try with that garbage time bit. He's not going to be hurt his entire career, so stats from the time he was playing hurt are irrelevant. 4chuckie, With Cato, you're talking about 2 games from over 100 in his 3rd and 4th years in the league. With Collier, I made reference to over half the games in the first month of his NBA career. There is much more reason to be optimistic on Collier than Cato. Also, remember he was not a lottery pick anyway. And while he may not be better than a solid role player, getting a solid role player out of last year's draft at pick 9 or later should be considered a true steal, not a bust. ------------------ "Basketball players win basketball games. Athletes win track meets."-- Shane Battier Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more!
The dude is not a bust his got a good perimeter jumper and not too shaby for a big man playing a little rough on a push and shove against the diesel man (Shaq). I think he'll be alright Guys. Now can we trade Cato?. ------------------ Rudy T. will find and fulfill Rockets destiny.
Like I said, you rely upon anecdotal evidence and exhibit a personal bias, if not devotion, to Collier. In other words, you lack objectivity. I see Collier for the player he has been, not the player I would like to see him be. You see him for the player you imagine him to be, but is not. As for your comment implying that if I watched the Rockets play this season, I would concur in your opinion, rest easy. I've watched the Rockets play every season for 30 years, so there is no youthful delusion in my analysis. Don't get too enamored of Collier. He's filler to meet cap needs if the right deal comes along and an extra 1.2 mil is needed to make it work. And if it does, he will not be missed. ------------------
You see him for the player you imagine him to be, but is not. I'll tell you one thing-- I'm not devoted to this guy. I don't think he's that great of a player. There were several other guys that I wanted before him in last year's draft. The one thing, however, that I do try and defend is baseless criticism of this team. If you think you can tell Collier is a bust this short into his career, that would be baseless criticism. And I also like how your argument to dispute my facts was that I have a bias towards him... how would that affect the facts? The way I look at it, I'm one of the only ones here who does look at the guy objectively. The majority of posters here were infuriated with Rudy from the start with this pick, and looked for every mistake they could in Collier to make the guy look bad. He's not flashy, and he wasn't a top draft pick, and as a result some of the people who thought we could've done better with the pick are trying so hard to find everything wrong with Collier to please their own ego. It's a similar scenario when we discuss Francis and Cuttino. There are a lot of people who feel Francis should be the leader and the one taking the last shot, and there are several who watch Mobley closely every possession to try and find things wrong with him. There's a fine line between being open-minded and being biased. ------------------ "Basketball players win basketball games. Athletes win track meets."-- Shane Battier Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! [This message has been edited by The Cat (edited June 14, 2001).]
Good point..Contrasting this year's draft(imho), last years is likely the worst in many, many years. ------------------ Rarely is the question asked: Guns kill squirrels than REDRUM to fools across the nation?
I totally see where you are coming from and I understand exactly what you mean, I am glad someone around here sees things the way I try to see them, and that is looking at it objectively. With that said I will say one thing about Collier and that is that the guy did not play enough to really have an educated opinion on what kind of NBA career he is going to have and if you (meaning anyone) has already made up your mind about him being a bust then you are rushing into that decision . Look at it this way, Cato has been w/us for a couple of years and hasn't done much but yet some of you are willing to give him a chance to have a "break through season" so why not do the same for a rookie that only played about 1 mo in the NBA before inj. took over??? Come on lets be reasonable. To put it in perspective, lets say you just got hired at this particular company and on your 2 day on the job you made a mistake, do you get fired or given a 2nd chance? for the most part you will be given another chance due to the fact you are so new to the job and the mistake could simply be considered a mistake that you would make due to your inexperience....... Same goes to Collier give him a chance . ------------------ When will I reach 1000 posts ?
Collier is not a bust, he is a nice heady ball player who knows how to set a screen and roll to the open spot for a jumper. Collier fills a role for Rudy, and Langhi has yet to get his chance. I think both of them will be all right, and will contribute in some form for many years. Personally, I like Langhi's game a lot, I just think he needs some more time to get comfortable. DaDakota ------------------ If you like RTS games, check out this one. www.frontierwars.com coming soon to a PC near you.
The thing is that most of the Collier bashers are having a field day with the FEELING of what can and cannot do . .. and the FEELING that someone else they wanted in the draft is MORE special. 9 Rockets Joel Przybilla 10 Magic Keyon Dooling 11 Celtics Jerome Moiso 12 Mavericks Etan Thomas 13 Magic Courtney Alexander 14 Pistons Mateen Cleaves PG Michigan St. 15 Bucks Jason Collier Traded to Rockets PF Georgia Tech **** 16 Kings Hidayet Turkoglu SF Turkey 17 SuperSonics Desmond Mason SF Oklahoma St. 18 Clippers Quentin Richardson SG DePaul 19 Hornets Jamaal Magloire C Kentucky 20 76ers Craig Claxton PG Hofstra *** 21 Raptors Morris Peterson SF Michigan St. 22 Knicks Donnell Harvey PF Florida 23 Jazz DeShawn Stevenson SG 24 Bulls Dalibor Bagaric C Croatia 25 Suns Iakovos Tsakalidis C Greece 26 Nuggets Mamadou N'Diaye C Auburn 27 Pacers Primoz Brezec C Slovenia 28 Trail Blazers Erick Barkley PG St. John's (NY) 29 Lakers Mark Madsen PF Stanford 30 Clippers Marko Jaric SF Italy 31 Mavericks Dan Langhi PF Vanderbilt 32 Bulls A.J. Guyton PG Indiana 33 Bulls Jake Voskuhl C Connecticut 34 Bulls Khalid El-Amin PG Connecticut 35 Wizards Mike Smith SF Louisiana Monroe 36 Nets Soumaila Samake C Cincinnati Stuff (IBL) 37 Heat Eddie House PG Arizona St. 38 Rockets Eduardo Najera PF Oklahoma So who among this group would you have taken before Collier? While you can talk about upside future guess work. Who among these did better THIS YEAR. Only 2 stand out to me and you probably won't agree with me: Hidayet Turkoglu and Morris Peterson But we weren't looking for SF last year it seemed we wanted a PF/C and nothing i see here had as much impact as Collier/Langhi. Rocket River Just putting up the competition. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Rocket River (edited June 14, 2001).] [This message has been edited by Rocket River (edited June 14, 2001).]
The Wizards were so pleased with Courtney Alexander's progress that they want to trade Rip Hamiilton. Guys better than Collier: Alexander Turkoglu D. Mason Q. Richardson Magloire- played very well in playoffs, excellent D Harvey- this guy can board like crazy Mo Pete ------------------ "Oh No..." -Bill Walton in 97 just before Stockton's buzzer beater
Alexander Turkoglu D. Mason Q. Richardson Magloire- played very well in playoffs, excellent D Harvey- this guy can board like crazy Mo Pete The Rockets thought Shandon a long-term piece of the puzzle last year, so you can't blame them for not selecting an SF. The need for a center with an outside touch was also more pressing than one with defense, so Collier was more important than Magloire. And Harvey didn't do anything all year long. He hardly ever played. You're basing the fact on him boarding like crazy from his college days. Well, Collier led the ACC, the toughest conference in the country, in rebounding so I can say by the same logic that he can board like crazy. If you watch the NBA these days, you are not going to win with a 6'5 or 6'6 SF. You need a long, versatile, 6'8 or 6'9 SF with a good shooting touch, defense, and ability to run the floor. Morris Peterson, at 6'6, will not ever be a championship SF. Desmond Mason and Alexander are pure SG's-- them playing the 3 is not even debatable. Magloire has more flash, but I'd rather take Collier. Magloire is pretty solid around the basket, but the Rockets needed a big man with touch from the outside more than someone who can put in a few dunks underneath. The only player (in that group) in retrospect I would rather have than Collier is Turkoglu, but you cannot fault the Rockets for not selecting an SF last year, when it was obvious that was not the need they needed to address in the first round. And I still don't know if I'd rather have Turkoglu than Collier and a first rounder this year-- that is iffy as well. ------------------ "Basketball players win basketball games. Athletes win track meets."-- Shane Battier Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more!
remember before the season the Rockets had no freaking clue if Hakeem was going to play at all with all the injuries he had that had sidelined almost all of the previous season. So you were stuck with Cato as the starting center and no backup. THe Rockets NEEDED a backup center, and thought Collier wasn't worth the #9(and evidently didn't think Prissy was worth the 9 either) , so they traded down and got a draft pick AND Collier. Not bad. In retrospect i would've prefered Magloire as the center, but the Rockets were going to use that 1st pick on a center regardless, so debating whether we should have picked up Turkeglue or MoPete or Alexander is pointless. ------------------ .,.·^*'´'|'\..........,.·^*'´¯¯¯'`*^·,...,/|'`*^·-, '|.......'|::\......,·'.....,.·:*:·,......'`i:'|.......| '|.......'|:::|.....;.......':,:::,:·.......';:|.......| '|.......|::;i - ·;i'`:,......¯¯.......,·´|::|.......| '|.......'´.......'|'i:::`*:~·.–·~^*'´: :'|::|.......'`*·-, '|........,.-:^:':'\:'`:;:: :: : : : :: ::;·'i::/`':^·.,......`'i '|..,.:'´:::::::::::'\| '`*^~·:–:·~^*'´..'|/:::::::::'`:^:., | '´:;:::::::::;:-·^*'´.....................`'*^·:;-.....:;·' ....`·;:·'´........................................'`^·:;·´
It's not that Collier is a bad player; it's just he is not what the Rockets need from the center position. With Mo Taylor or Webber at PF, the Rocks need a C who excells on D and is a good shot-blocker and rebounder. These are the weakest parts of his game. Now that the Rockets have become a perimeter team, it does make sense to have big men who can draw opposing bigs away from the basket with their jump shot and create lanes for Steve, Cat, etc. to penetrate. However, Mo Taylor already fills our need for a sweet-shooting big man. If Cato could ever play up to his ability, he would be ideal for us because he is an athletic shot-blocker who is big enough to match up with the C's in the West. As for Collier, he definitely has the talent to make a nice career for himself. It just won't be on the Rockets b/c a frontcourt of Collier and Taylor won't ever be able to handle all of the C's (Shaq, D-Rob) and PF's (Rasheed, Duncan, KG, McDyess) in the West. ------------------
The assets which Collier presents to the team are one issue. His being drafted is a separate issue entirely. The only quarrel I have with his selection is that we needed defense more than offense. It was clear that we needed to draft a big man. Our interior defense was hurting more than our offense. I had us taking Pryzbilla, which we did. I also had us taking Collier if we did not get Pryzbilla. Neither had a great first year and both may eventually to some good in the league. Because Collier is primarily an offensive asset, his failure to consistently hit those 15-17 foot jumpers was a major disappointment. That doesn't make him a bust, but it does mean we didn't get from him the thing we most needed from him to justify playing time. If he remains a Rocket, I hope Cat is right. I hope my concerns are resolved by his play. My problem is that there are only so many minutes available at the five, and none available at the four. Given the fact that Cato has got to go, and Dream may leave, we have to have a five with defensive presence. That is not going to be Collier. So, I do not see how he can get the playing time to justify his presence. It does not matter how good this team is otherwise, if we have weak defense in the five spot, we are lottery bound again. With the possible exception of his ability to set a pick, I do not see anything that Collier can bring to the table which cannot be delivered by Bullard or Langhi. Bull can also shoot the trey, and Langhi is better at putting the ball on the floor than Collier, and he can play the three. The zone defense will mean that the ability of a big man such as Collier to pull other big men away from the hole will be more limited. So I see Collier as being surplusage, at best, and a defensive liability. ------------------
Remember that when we drafted Collier it was asmuch because of who we were trying to impress as anything. Cuttino's agent said if we drafted a player who could compete with Cat for minutes, Mobley would go elsewhere. Cat was signing a contract for a team that was not planning to start him, while he had more lucrative deals elsewhere that would make him a starter. It's awfully hard to judge Jason. He's better that Pyryzabilla (enough Y's?), but he has not had a good enough run for us to fairly judge him. Ask this question again next summer. TRG ------------------ <A HREF="http://www.TheRocketGuy.com " TARGET=_blank>http://www.TheRocketGuy.com </A> "You try to improve and do better. It's a journey, not just the destination." - Hakeem Olajuwon
Anyone feels Jason Collier was selected by the Rockets as apart of a sign and trade with Indiana for Austin Croshere that didn’t pan out?
Cat and Rocketriver,.. yall have done an excellent job in explaining the selection process of picking Collier. If people are going to say that he is a bust than you might as well say everyone except a handful of lottery picks (if that!) are busts from the 2000 draft. In my view, the Rockets did the best they could given the circumstances. If Collier hangs around on the team, it will be as a big guy who can rebound, make the occasional outside shot to draw defenses and collect fouls when needed off the bench. Role players are important and hopefully he will develop as a valuable bench guy. ------------------ Rarely is the question asked: Guns kill squirrels than REDRUM to fools across the nation?
