sorry . . . how rude of me. . . Allow me to introduce you. CAT . . .THIS IS ZRB . also known as Tweak . . when he is not on his lithium he can be the absolute foremost authority in negativity and pessimism. Rocket River aaahhhh the season seems almost around again More Tweak bashing . . *grin* ------------------
Rocket River: Be nice now... ZRB has improved greatly since the Tweak days. Of course, that remark was completely uncalled for. Why do you think Collier was a worthless pick? he fills a role, doesn't he? ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment...
Exactly. No matter how much we want to, none of us can come out and say he WILL be this or he WILL be that...the guy has NOT played enough to make any kind of judgment yet. ------------------ Jazzkiller
I knew you were gonna comment on that Im gonna keep all my comments to myself ------------------ President of the Steve Francis, Jamal Crawford,Larry Hughes, and Charles Woodson fan club. [This message has been edited by Lil Francis (edited June 13, 2001).]
hey cat: i think him having a good game against shaq and the few other you mentioned in another thread doesnt really show a whole lot anyway...those were isolated games and there were countless other games he played in that he was pretty absent. I know you maye want facts and I am confident I could produce but I dont have the time nor frankly the interest to do so...more than anything I just dont understand your level of admiration for the guy.. do you really honestly think this guy will ever be a real factor?? okay maybe he was marginal at best and yeah he was a rookie but you do get intangibles feeling from players as to their potential greatness or abilities..even when they dont score you get that 'feeling' Collier doesnt do that for me and I think that the intangibles not hard numbers like points is necessarily the be all end all you make it.. to me he is really just lucky to be tall and big and is a bryany reeves type ogre...nothing more...hes the kind of guy that makes me say if I was that big and tall I would be in the NBA...does he really wow you with anything?---no pete chilcutt had some good games.. with collier you get the same ervin johnson (not magic) dampier, witherspoon, kleine kind of of feeling..maybe okay but nothing great and basically a yawner.. i think that people are also trying to make the point that for as high as a pick and the rockets generally good history of drafting he doesnt meet up to specs.. okay maybe the draft that year was a little below average as well but seriously what are you saying in your defense then? that we can go to war with this guy?? lets be serious..he is a 2nd stringer albeit *maybe still unproven* solid center.. nothing more nothing less.. give me his rebouding stats or his points in the paint on thursday away games in december and still i think you are missing the point.. ------------------ "no matter how good she looks someone... somewhere..is tired of her sh*t"
The jury is out but if I had to bet I would say he is most likely a bust. I think he could become a valuable part of the Rockets if he would become a little, I mean alot more physical. Like a Bill Lambeer. ------------------ Fuggetabout it
i think him having a good game against shaq and the few other you mentioned in another thread doesnt really show a whole lot anyway...those were isolated games and there were countless other games he played in that he was pretty absent. Those were over half the games this year that he was healthy. Any stats after the Celtics game were from games in which he was not near healthy. And, those were all the games when he was given the backup center minutes from Rudy. Sometimes Rudy did not go to him, but instead went to KT, when the opposition had a smaller, quicker backup center. okay maybe he was marginal at best and yeah he was a rookie but you do get intangibles feeling from players as to their potential greatness or abilities..even when they dont score you get that 'feeling' If you're expecting the guy to show potential greatness in the first month of his career then your expectations are WAY too high. with collier you get the same ervin johnson (not magic) dampier, witherspoon, kleine kind of of feeling..maybe okay but nothing great and basically a yawner.. If Collier can provide near the impact for us that Ervin Johnson does for the Bucks, we should be absolutely thrilled with the selection. Bear in mind, however, that this opinion does come from someone who thinks Ervin Johnson is probably the most underrated guy in the NBA. i think that people are also trying to make the point that for as high as a pick and the rockets generally good history of drafting he doesnt meet up to specs.. The only way you can fairly evaluate a team is by comparing it to their peers. Name me one team at pick 9 or later who had a better draft than the Rockets last year, or got something of more value than Jason Collier and pick 23 this year. lets be serious..he is a 2nd stringer albeit *maybe still unproven* solid center.. He probably will be a backup center in this league, and a spot starter. And when you look at last year's depth, that is by far the best realistic scenario you hope the Rockets could come out of that draft with. To get a solid player and a pick from that draft last year is something few teams can say. more than anything I just dont understand your level of admiration for the guy.. do you really honestly think this guy will ever be a real factor?? I liked Collier's game in college, but what gets on me here is the completely ignorant posts from people hating the guy just because he's a non-flashy white center who you won't see doing any windmill dunks. People always have pet peeves, and I guess you can say mine is baseless criticism. To call Collier a bust and to say some of the things you guys have said about him after seeing him one month in the first month of his career is a complete joke. Kelvin Cato is a guy to criticize. He was given a contract worth approx. 7 million per season, and has shown no work ethic, no desire, no heart, over the course of two long years. But yet, the majority of these same posters who criticize Collier day and night consider Cato "not a bad center" and a "good backup". You know who you are. I don't defend Collier alone; anyone here knows I do much the same for Mo Taylor, Cuttino Mobley, etc. If you're to criticize guys after one month of basketball and label their careers over and do many similar ridiculous things, then you can expect to hear from me. ------------------ "Basketball players win basketball games. Athletes win track meets."-- Shane Battier Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more!
The Cat: The only way you can fairly evaluate a team is by comparing it to their peers. Name me one team at pick 9 or later who had a better draft than the Rockets last year, or got something of more value than Jason Collier and pick 23 this year. The problem with this statement isn't Collier, himself. It's the fact that Collier would likely have been available in the second round. I think you've successfully proven that Collier's not an awful player... but part of drafting is about getting the best value for your pick. Collier would have been a really terrific pick later in the draft. But why bother at #15 when nobody else wanted him? ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment...
Haven, That's all speculation. Imho, he would've been gone by the second round, as teams like Phoenix, Indiana, etc. would've given him a long look. No way he would've lasted until our pick 38. It was of the Rockets opinion that he was clearly the best prospect left, and while you can trade down a little, you cannot run the risk of trading down too much. It may be much the same scenario with Ken Johnson this year. I'll be willing to bet most mocks don't have him in the first round, but if the Rockets keep picks 18 and/or 23, I'll bet they take him at one of those picks. If the top player on your draft list is projected several levels below where your pick is, you can afford to trade down some, but not near to the level the media projects them at. You run too large of a risk of losing him, and then being stuck with what from their evaluations was second round talent. ------------------ "Basketball players win basketball games. Athletes win track meets."-- Shane Battier Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! [This message has been edited by The Cat (edited June 13, 2001).]
True, but it's also speculation on your part that he would have been taken before the Rockets pick in the second round. ------------------ "Modern bourgeois society with its relations of production, of exchange and property, a society that has conjured up such gigantic means of production and of exchange, is like the sorceror, who is no longer able to control the powers of the nether world whom he has called up by his spells."
The Cat- Give me a break. What makes you think he would of been so great if he was not hurt? You say that he only had a month to prove himself. I say he did not do much to make people feel anything different. He improved during the course of the MONTH. He could not get any worse, the only way he could go was up. Look, we all respect your point. At this point you might be right. However, thus far for the 15th pick, he is closer to a bust than anything else. I have a question for you. Langhi was a second round pick. To this point, who has made more of a impact, Langhi or Collier? Langhi should of been picked before him. If your argument is Collier would not of lasted until the 38th pick then I say it would not of been that big of an issue. He has done nothing thus far to warrant the 15th pick regardless of who was available in the draft. ------------------ Fuggetabout it [This message has been edited by bigboymumu (edited June 13, 2001).]
To this point, who has made more of a impact, Langhi or Collier? This one's easy. By far, Collier. Langhi again looks flashier to most fans, but go check out the numbers when given 10-20 minutes. Collier was much more consistent and productive in the time than Langhi was when given time... ------------------ "Basketball players win basketball games. Athletes win track meets."-- Shane Battier Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more!
When did Langhi have a chance to play that many minutes? I do not know what you mean when you say flashy. In my opinion, Franchise and Mooch are flashy, not Langhi. If this and if that. Langhi has more upside than Collier. ------------------ Fuggetabout it
When did Langhi have a chance to play that many minutes? You're contradicting yourself almost. You said Langhi had a greater impact than Collier, yet your argument to refute Coller's better numbers is that Langhi didn't have enough minutes?? So are you saying Langhi had a greater impact looking lost for those 3 or 4 minutes a game he had on the floor than Collier did playing solid D and racking up 8 pts and 3 rebounds in about 15 minutes as the backup center? ------------------ "Basketball players win basketball games. Athletes win track meets."-- Shane Battier Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more!
I'm sorry, but 3 or 4 good games does not make Collier a good pick. Most of what I saw from him was in garbage time, and all he usually did was brick open shots and blow easy rebounds- against garbage-time competition. If you guys could show me the list of players drafted in 2000, I cound find some better picks thab Collier. ------------------ "Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning how to put food on their family while being put to death." It's back... Protrolls.com!
Oh, and is 3 rebounds supposed to be good production? In 10 minutes, yes, but not in 20. ------------------ "Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning how to put food on their family while being put to death." It's back... Protrolls.com!
I think you answered it yourself. Langhi did not have much of an impact but he did have more impact than Collier. I hope you are right. I hope he does become a big piece of a championship Rockets team. I respect your opinion and only time will tell. ------------------ Fuggetabout it
Langhi did not have much of an impact but he did have more impact than Collier. Then why don't the numbers show it? I said that comment sarcastically, because if Langhi had a greater impact, he would've gotten to play more minutes and it would've shown up in the statistics. ------------------ "Basketball players win basketball games. Athletes win track meets."-- Shane Battier Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more!
When they picked Langhi and Collier, I had thought the plan was to have 3-point shooting from our big men to create space on the court for our guards to operate. I still think that is the plan for both of them. I had read that Collier got injured during his senior year and never full healed. Langhi has had a history of showing up for camp out of shape and then got bad shin splints and never got on track last year. I think that this is a "make-or-break" season for both of them. ------------------
Maybe the term "bust" is too harsh. Perhaps it is sufficient to say he had a disappointing first season, he appeared injury prone, and his limited playing time was not encouraging. He played in only 23 games, for a total of 222 minutes. That is not much PT on which to judge. However, his per minute numbers are troubling. At seven feet tall, he rebounds at the same rate per minute as Steve, Wiz, and Bullard. Wiz and Bull are perimeter shooters, so it is expected that their rebounding numbers would reflect that, but Collier shot only one trey attempt in 71 shots. If he had shown any promise on the three point attempt, I would consider him to have the Sam Perkins potential, but his lack of attempts at the trey suggest he is not even close to having the shot down. If he cannot drain the three, then he has to make those Bill Wennington face up jumpers. He only hit 38% of his two point attempts, which is low, low, low. He got almost no steal and no blocks. The sad truth is that Carlos Rogers, with all his limitations, is a better reserve 5/4 than Collier. He may not be a bust, and he may really turn things around, but he does not appear to be a guy who will justify his draft pick. I can think of several 5/4s who will be available this year from 11-23 picks which could be expected to contribute more on this team. I would prefer to see a new, more athletic guy playing minutes that would otherwise go to Collier. ------------------
