Since I'm not as persistent as Mango, I'll have to stick to the case in front of me. If I have the energy for it, I'll try to dog your posts in the future. OK? (I don't really have the time to do it; just stop posting 'everybody agrees w/ me' and think of little silent me over in the corner ). Your argument that Shaq's poor production proves Collier a sound defender is invalid. Collier may be a great/above average defender, but there's no causal relationship between Collier's minutes and Shaq's production (as NIKE et al have pointed out). Review tape, tell us on a case by case basis the ways in which Shaq was shut down by Collier. Otherwise, it's as valid to think that {insert player name} played the bulk of defense against Shaq. When was Shaq playing? When did Collier play against him? What defensive scheme was played w/ Collier? W/o Collier? Which players were in the game for the defense? Which players were in the game for the offense? It's plausible to think that Shaq will defer to an outside threat, if it exists. It's plausible to think that Shaq will be more aggressive if Collier has him singled out. It's rational to question whether or not Shaq obeyed the double or triple and passed back out like a good big man. Kobe's 37(?) points that DS pointed out suggest this could be the case. Shaq's assist numbers perhaps parallel his 'better man approach' in his disagreements w/ Kobe last year. Was Shaq passing back out when Collier was shutting him down? NIKE also mentioned other alternatives, including Shaq having a poor night. Dreamshake also pointed out that Shaq was held to 25 points w/o Collier playing at all. Since this is below Shaq's average for the other 3 games, The Cat, you must deal with this variance. You brought up the numbers. Defend them. Review the tape. Don't hide behind stats. I don't insist that Collier didn't play those minutes, I just think that your defense is as hokey as other people's attacks on Collier. Tell us in what ways Collier is an above average defender. IMO there isn't sufficient information in these posts to argue anything other than 'Collier is promising'. Anything beyond or below that is (imo) reaching.
(I don't really have the time to do it; just stop posting 'everybody agrees w/ me' and think of little silent me over in the corner Please tell me at any point when I seemed to indicate I believed this. Tell us in what ways Collier is an above average defender. Please tell me when I said he was. My argument is that he isn't a bad defender, as ZRB suggests.
gosh, where is Mango when you need him? I've seen you differ to the 'mass' mentality a few times when trying to win an argument. It may be persuasive for a few ("everybody here agrees"), but it is meaningless. I apologize about the 'above' in 'above average'. If you'd care to defend Collier, validly, as an average defender I'll take that too. If anyone wants to prove Collier is horrible using ZRB's laundry list... have at it too. Define horrible, then show us how Collier fits that definition. Or define an average player, then show us how Collier fits that definition. TheCat, I wouldn't even notice your posts about Collier if you didn't go to such inordinate lengths to defend him. He is what he is. Don't defend him while you hypocritically drag down players that should merit your same unwaivering defense. Dreamshake, tpl and NIKE have all questioned your logic, and yet you gloss over their (IMO convincing) points to highlight some meaningless jibba jabba. Give us data. Give us meaningful data.
Achebe, Did you happen to notice that some of Dreamshake's facts were not even true? I can put together one hell of an argument if you let me make up stats. Also, why would I argue with tpl and Nike? They may have different interpretations of the data, but they seem to have come to the same conclusion I have: Collier isn't a horrible defender. I don't need to waste my time arguing with people who already agree with me on that statement. Don't defend him while you hypocritically drag down players that should merit your same unwaivering defense. Like who? My whole premise for defending Collier originated with the fact that no one else does, or at least didn't last year. Collier isn't one of my favorite players on the team even... I just personally think he's a solid player who works hard, knows his role, fits the team, and has some potential, and he doesn't deserve to be bashed by any stretch. The only players I can recall me dragging down are Kelvin Cato and Shandon Anderson, and imho with good reason. I don't think Shandon fit this team... I don't think Kelvin Cato fits any team. I think Collier does fit this team. Why should my opinion on Collier affect my opinion on Cato and Shandon?
Cat, those stats do not suggest that Collier fits the team. The Rockets need a defensive banger at the 5. Their offense is set with Francis, Mobley, Rice, Taylor, Griffin, Thomas, Williams, and Norris. The Rockets don't need any more outside threats. All Collier does is provide an outside jumper (and a mediocre one at that). How does he fit the team? I don't care how hard he works, he is a crappy defender and rebounder. He is not what the Rockets need. Anyway, here's a list of the most talented Rockets from top to bottom: Francis Mobley Griffin Taylor Rice Thomas Norris Williams Cato Morris, Langhi Collier As you can see, Collier is on the bottom.
I did not notice DS making up stats. DS, have you been making up stats again? This may be one of those times in which you reach a consensus before it is due. I agree w/ you that Collier is not a horrible defender, but I also agree w/ tpl and NIKE that your argument in Collier's defense is somewhat lacking. That's the point correct? You're trying to prove ZRB wrong. You rose to ZRB's bait. You still haven't put together a worthy argument in Collier's defense though. Just write "I disagree" w/ ZRB if you're not going to put up something that stands the test. I'm lazy, I've been there. That's why I usually write "I disagree". I was merely echoing the concern that you defended Collier on an injury status when Cato could have been defended (instead of indicted) for the same reason(s). People exhausted the notion that Cato's "high" ankle sprain was lingering. If I were to actually look for such posts, would I have found you playing devil's advocate at the time (of the injury) in his defense? I think that I probably would. There's no reason to abandon homerism for Cato now just to argue a point about Collier now... unless you want to create 'The ZRB', who annoyingly defends Cato in any and all situations.
There's an easy way to settle this argument. Wait for the All-Star break and the regular season. Then we self-appointed "experts" can lay everything on the proverbial table and, for what it's worth, make our own FACTUAL judgments on Collier. But realize this. (AND I DON'T CARE IF IT SOUNDS PREACHY) Jason Collier IS a Rocket. And as Rocket fans, let's try to support him instead of tearing him down. Fact is, Jason is hardly the best nor worst prospect the Rocks have ever brought in, and I for one believe that he could develop into a decent to solid NBA C. Apparently Rudy and CD believe in him, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt as well. For those that disagree, "to each his own", and let's compare "notes" in Feb. and April.
I take a wait and see attitute towards Collier, which on this board makes me a Collier lover, but ... Holy spit! That convinced me! Dump the DOA SOB ASAP! Thanks, ZRB, for clearing that up. I'm forwarding it to Rudy and CD right away. No team should ever keep their 12th most talented player on the 12-man roster!!! Can we go back to dreaming up one-sided trades now?
Collie is a role player. He is fine as a role player. The Rocks will give him one more year to develop and/or look to upgrade him. But he isn't so bad that you just cut him from the team, which it sounds like ZRB is seeking. Collie knows his role and works hard. Plus he is big. Keep him until you have a sure thing that is better. Right now, that sure thing hasn't fallen in our lap. So why is this such a difficult thing to understand? -krosfyah
Wow, if one wanted to analyze your definition of "talent," then one could really disect this list. Cato is potentially more "talented" than MoTay but there is more than "talent" that makes up your worth on a team. That is why you ranked Cato so low and can't necessarily disagree (much). But using that same logic, Morris/Langhi do not have the same value or worth on this team. (For one, Morris is unproven.) Collier stands to make a larger impact on this team because of his size, work ethic, and the lack of another quality backup 5. -krosfyah
That list doesn't take potential into account. If that were the case, Griffin would probably be on top. Yes, I expect that list to be a valuable tool for Rudy and the gang once the season starts.
Well, you didn't argue that Collier stands to make more of an impact on this team than Langhi or even TMO. I know others around here are high on TMO but he is completely unproven and in a spot w/out much PT. Therefore, I beleive Collier will provide more value on this team than either of those two. If Wiz and Mooch stay, he might even be more valuable than those two. So don't be so quick to dump Collier. If Rocks don't make any more moves, he stands to provide valuable minutes. That is not an endoresment that this team will win the WC. Still too young. -krosfyah
