Why are we internally competing and being heads up against individuals when we we should pull the team as a collective?...It's all about the team and individuals doing their best to pull their weight given the status of their particular role....Personally I see Collier as at least adequate in the domain of his particular role...Why be quick to banish him? Make an assessment as unduly as previously posted but do so in accordance within a reasonable time to infer from...It is more baseful to assess the potential derelict of performance regarding other players...So to clean the slab lets all agree to reserve judgement on the partculars of nothing in particular...
ROXRAN I believe it is more frustration, than anything else. A few things need to be resolved, but nothing seems to be happening. It's like cabin fever. Everything seems to rub the wrong way. If we could vote to either start the season now, with the players we have, or wait until Oct., and solidify the roster, I would be hard pressed to vote for a better roster. If they would just give us an idea of what the final roster will be, I could sleep alot better, atleast until training camp.
Maybe it would be a better idea to look at Colliers numbers against a center other than Shaq. I mean, c'mon. Give the guy a break. Hakeem was the only guy that has had any success with Shaq and that was probably do more to Hakeem being his hero. What about Collier vs. Mutumbo or David Robinson?
Really, please!!! We are comparing Collier to Shaq? Reality check! Collier is a role player and he didn't get much PT last season with injuries. I beleive he could become a fan favorite if he gets PT this season, is fully recovered from his injury, and doesn't get injured again. While you can't compare him to Shaq, he played Shaq hard and didn't back down one bit. He fouled out to a standing ovation cause everybody there recognized his efforts. The refs didn't give Jason any slack whistling every thing. Jason is a warrior and the Rocks needs more of that. Maybe Cato will learn something. I don't know Collier's long term viability but ... Keep him until you have an obvious choice for a replacement. Marc Jackson or JWhite aren't obvious upgrades to me esp since they have larger contracts. Collier could have a break out season. Marc Jackson doesn't deserve a big contract as he's unproven. So why gamble (unless they fall in our lap) when Collier could have just as big an upside as these other guys esp in the Rock's system? Rocks don't need a dominant 5, just a servicable one. -krosfyah
We are comparing Collier to Shaq? Reality check! No one is comparing Collier to Shaq. All I'm saying is if Collier was an awful defensive center, wouldn't Shaq have just dominated him? Yes, he does dominate everyone in the league, but if Collier is a below average defensive center, shouldn't that make Shaq's numbers above average when he faces him for 12-16 minutes a game?
Collier can NOT score in the post, he can not rebound, and he can not play defense. With the type of sprain Cato had, he could very well have been bothered the entire season. The year before, he averaged 8 points, 6 boards, and 1 block. Those numbers are better than anything Collier will ever come close to. Walt Williams has provided an outside threat with the Rockets for the last two years. Yes he has had his cold streaks, but he has also provided many huge buckets. This guy has contributed in ways Collier couldn't even dream about. I don't know what makes you think that Collier is even a half decent player, worth any sort of attention. THIS GUY CAN NOT PLAY! He is by far, the least talented player on the team. I would take any other player in the 2000 draft over him. The guy should not have even been drafted. He is thrid string CBA material. I don't care about what he did in college. He had plenty of opportunities to show that he would be servicable, and he failed. His "jumper", is highly overrated. I saw this guy brick shot after shot in garbage-time situations. He and Langhi are in the same boat. All they are good for is six fouls each.
Anyone else care to take this one? I'm sick and ******* tired of dealing with ZRB. It's like talking to a brick wall. No matter what kind of logic, facts, or reasoning you present, it still doesn't matter. If you honestly believe what you wrote in the last paragraph of your post, you are by far the worst and least educated fan on this BBS, bar none.
You just realized that Cat? BTW, Collie is a freaking bench player. If you analyze a player enough, yeah, you are going to find bad and good things about most of the starters in the NBA, let alone bench players. For those of you who think Collie isn't worthy of being a backup center or even being on the roster - too ****ing bad!! A lot of people on the bbs, and more importantly, Rudy T and company disagree with you, so its out of your hands. If he does turn out to be worthless, Rudy will get rid of him. Personally, I think he'll play pretty good this year. I'm looking forward to seeing what he and our new team can do.
The problem I have with your argument, Cat, is that you're extrapolating what kind of production Collier can provide through shoddy logic, which can easily be disproved, and leaves out important factors. You're contradicting yourself with statements like "everybody has to help on Shaq", I'm just paraphrasing, but admittedly you're saying Collier received alot of help. I was at that game too, and the Rockets at least showed double team every time he touched the ball, as they do with most dominant post players. I'm not going to downplay Collier's performance in that game, because he played good, straight up position D on Shaq without getting into foul trouble, but c'mon..... the only person that stopped Shaq that day was Shaq. He just had a bad game, and it had more to do with him than it did with Collier. The reason I like Collier, is because we have a dearth of legit big men on this team, which makes him valuable, and he seemed to understand the system well. Just the fact that he's a 7 footer makes him more important than other, more talented players on the team. I don't think he has an inside game though..... he's going to have to hit more than 2-3 baby left hooks before you can call that shot part of his offensive repetoire. The same goes for his jumper on the pick and roll. Just because he hit a couple of elbow jumpers in games ie: road win against Indiana in the 4th quarter, doesn't mean he can do it on a consistent basis.
You're contradicting yourself with statements like "everybody has to help on Shaq", I'm just paraphrasing, but admittedly you're saying Collier received alot of help. I was at that game too, and the Rockets at least showed double team every time he touched the ball, as they do with most dominant post players. I'm not contradicting myself, because I never said Collier always guarded Shaq without any help. I gave Shaq's numbers against Collier, which were below average. If Shaq made a move on Collier, did KT or someone rotate over to foul Shaq or try to put a body between him and the basket? Yes. But every center in the NBA has that kind of help against Shaq with the exception of Dikembe Mutombo and Alonzo Mourning. When Shaq made his move on Hakeem, the Rockets rotated over and doubled then as well. Collier did receive help at times, but it was no different than almost any other NBA center gets against Shaq. The problem I have with your argument, Cat, is that you're extrapolating what kind of production Collier can provide through shoddy logic, which can easily be disproved, and leaves out important factors. My argument has been the facts. So far, no one has disproved those. I don't think he has an inside game though..... he's going to have to hit more than 2-3 baby left hooks before you can call that shot part of his offensive repetoire. The same goes for his jumper on the pick and roll. Just because he hit a couple of elbow jumpers in games ie: road win against Indiana in the 4th quarter, doesn't mean he can do it on a consistent basis. I'm not basing my thoughts on his inside game and outside jumper on just this season. I saw him knock down the outside jumper consistently in college, and the same goes for the hook inside. College is not the NBA I know, but an open 18 footer in college is the same as an open 18 footer in the NBA.
Players who work hard and know the value of team work are always useful. It seems to me Collier is that kind of player. Of course you also need extreme talent, but that doesn´t have to come from every player on the team. Just IMHO.
I don't think you can measure individual defense with stats. It doesn't account for double teams, or screens that caused mismatches, etc. For example, if we triple Shaq every time, he'll probably only score <20. But all the perimeter players will have statistical increases. You also can't account for the type of style of the game. An uptempo game causes more points to be scored. Even team defense can't entirely be broken down with stats, but some combination of FG% against, and points allowed can be a decent indicator. Sometimes a guy can have an off game, and he'd have a bad game no matter who was guarding him. There are plenty of statistical anomalies. Cat, you're splitting hairs because you're using a 2-3 game sample, where Collier played like 30 minutes total? Collier by no means is a great defender. Collier is not a horrible defender. He's an average defender. A couple of games where Shaq probably wasn't "on" means nothing. Maybe it means Collier happens to be a Shaq killer. There are always going to be counter examples. Going back to the thread where you said our defense against 3s was good, it's very easy to pull up the facts that Donyell Marshall did something like 25-13 against us, and that Peja may have been right at his PPG average, but managed to shot 56% against us. Some guys are Rocket killers, and some Rockets kill other teams. Collier's role on the team is to pull the other team's big man out of the lane, set picks and hit open jumpers. He's not supposed to put on a defensive lock down or anything of that sort. He's a solid rebounder. Cat-Then why not credit Cato for the year before. I believe the Rockets of 99/00 held Shaq to 19 ppg, his 2nd lowest output against only to the Hawks (Mutumbo). tpl-Collier can hit those shots with plenty of consistency. As for Cato, I think his sprain very well could've affected him. I recall the injury, and he landed on another player's foot and then went on to roll on it. Remember, an injury where Kobe landed on another player's foot kept him out of a couple of NBA Finals games. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Cato is a shotblocking threat. He can be that when he wants. Problem is, it seems he hasn't always wanted it. This is Cato's put up or shut up year. He's the man, and now we'll know what the story on him is.
That number, while on the surface true, is skewed by the fact that one of the three games O'Neal played against us he was ejected early on because of a fracas with a certain rotund power forward. Take that game out, and our performances against Shaq that year fall more in line with the remainder of the league.
I really don't care what the rest of the BBS thinks of Collier, this is MY opinion. I base it on watching Collier play. Stats don't tell the story with Collier, watching him play tells the story. Cat, logic can not be used to describe basketball players very well. Looking at it logically, why do we even want Moochie back? He only averaged 6 points and 3 assists. Those are hardly spectacular statistics. Well, you have to watch him play to see why the Rockets need him. You can't base all your opinions on statistics. I have seen Collier play in all of his games with the Rockets, and I think he is, by far, the least talented player on the team. I must apologize for disagreeing with the majority, again.
And there you have it -- 20 pounds of fresh, center meat carved, sliced and diced for our BBS feeding frenzy.
Collier by no means is a great defender. Collier is not a horrible defender. I think you misunderstood me, Nike. I'm not saying Collier is a defensive stopper for the big men of the league. All I'm trying to get across is that he is not a major liability in that area. Shaq was not nearly the only center that underperformed against Collier, if you look at the stats. I do understand that few of the other centers are impact players, but not many are these days. I think if Collier were a defensive liability that stats from opposing big men would reflect that, if you take a sample of 8-10 games. Cat-Then why not credit Cato for the year before. I believe the Rockets of 99/00 held Shaq to 19 ppg, his 2nd lowest output against only to the Hawks (Mutumbo). Excluding what Pued said, I respected the job that Cato did in 99/00. He wasn't great, but he certainly wasn't the lazy player with no heart and desire like he was this year. If Cato can at least recapture that form, great. Good for him, and the Rockets. However, I still have concerns over what will alter his level of desire from last year to this year. I know it's possible for him to turn it around, but I don't want to be too dependent on it, because I don't have much faith in players like him.
What were Shaqs averages against Collier in those 13 minutes? What if a lot of those points scored against Hakeem instead of Collier.
What's hilarious... is that after I read 90% of the Cat's posts, I feel like writing these exact words (merely substituting 'TheCat' for 'ZRB'). ZRB may be bipolar, but at least I've seen his rational side.
