I've been on Dench's bandwagon ever since his team kicked the piss out of the team @ the bottom of the earth, Adelaide Australia.
it was sweet to watch too! I'm a little disappointed still from when adelaide won the football premiership 2 years in a row (a couple of great games. credit where due), but the 'gong series made up for it a little Any chance on Dench getting a roster spot (10-12/IR)?
With the amount of time he played last year before being injured, no that is right he played some after he was injured. To have that kind of knowledge about what he can "NOT" do you are really a gifted judge of basketball talent. I am sure you are also sure at his age he is not able to change when asked by the team, probably to old to change his style of play.
I'm surprised by the absence of The Cat in this thread. A "Cat" analysis I think would give this discussion more perspective. Would someone put out some milk?
Guys like Collier who can't jump have to be big & physical inside if they're going to score in there. Also, Collier is kind of a quick-type wrist-and-quad type shooter. Additional muscle would help him improve release time and accuracy. The only thing, I remember someone had a picture from the Revue, and Collier looked positively fat, not buff. It could have been an illusion, but I wonder how much of this what people are accusing Swopa of in his Dampier thread: a PR move.
I'm here. Most of the posters in this thread are starting to see the light, and as a result it's not as necessary for me to defend Collier in every thread. Everyone knows my take on Collier, so I try and reserve my posts on this subject for those who constantly bash the guy. I don't want to repeat the same things over and over, but if you are going to argue with the pure facts and logic I have shown regarding Jason, then I'm definitely going to respond with them again. Anyway, I don't see how this could be anything but good news. Typically, you don't have to lose 20 pounds to get your conditioning back, esp. if you added that weight in muscle. His shot should get back with more repetition. Offensively, you guys know what he can do. He's going to set the picks even better than ever with the added muscle, he should still have his range, and his added bulk should help him get space for that lefty hook he has inside. Defensively is where this will help the most. He was a solid position defender anyway, but this should give him a better chance to bang with most of the league's centers. By the way, perhaps you guys should think about who you criticize. Did any of you know Collier was working hard this summer to gain added muscle and improve his game before Clutch gave you this inside information? Most players at this stage would make a huge spectacle of such an event, so the media, fans, etc. would stay off their back for a little bit. Collier didn't do it for that reason at all. He went out and worked very hard with the sole purpose of becoming a better basketball player. I cannot understand how so many people can give Cato opportunity after opportunity to prove himself after he has failed and shown no work ethic, and then write Collier off without giving him any chance at all. I don't think it's a matter of race, as someone said earlier in this thread, as much as it is a stereotype of what defines a good basketball player. It's cool to see these street ballers, the guys on the Nike commercials, the Slam Dunk Competition, etc. But the qualities that may make basketball "fun" to watch for you do not necessarily translate to winning basketball on the NBA level. Basketball is about being fundamentally sound, being able to shoot, pass, create, rebound, defend, set picks, play within the system, etc. It isn't about high flying athletic freaks running fast breaks and dunking all night long. Athletic freaks can make Sportscenter, but fundamentally sound players win championships.
Hottoddie-- Well, I certainly hope youre correct. RT seems to share your confidence. And I wasn't taking a swat a gym rats. Rather, I was thinking of a couple of DLs on my favorite football team who had trouble recovering from leg/foot injuries, partially due to their weight. Perhaps not the same thing I suppose. T-cain: I'm not so sure about that. Last summer (2000) he said both that he was going to work out all summer with CD and go back to ISU to finish his degree requirements. I'm not sure he did either. If not, it would be hard to say he has a good work ethic. Collier, OTOH, while he doesnt have the physical gifts of Cato, he certainly seems much more committed to making a career in the league. Cato seems to only care about one thing and apparently it aint ballin with my boys.
Great. Now Collier is going to be a terrible player with muscle, rather than a terrible player with baby fat. I'm excited now. Now Collier is going to be fastened to the floor even more. If all this guy does is shoot, how is adding muscle going to help? As Dreamshake said, this guy isn't a rebounder, shotblocker, intimidator, defender, or a dunker. What good is the muscle if he still has the same level of talent?
ZRB, How about arguing with facts instead of pulling this same ****? I know you love the Rockets, but I must admit, you are possibly one of the worst people on this board at arguing your points and supporting them with facts, evidence, logic, etc. I mean, if your points are so valid and correct, shouldn't the evidence, game film, etc. support your point? Anyway, I think it's about time to bring back my defense post... You are really showing your ignorance on basketball here. Why don't you back up your posts with some facts and statistics, instead of the baseless bull**** we had to hear from you during the season? Explain to me why Jason Collier should be cut. Each team needs 2 centers, some 3. There are 29 teams in the NBA, so let's say they need 2.5 centers each. Multiply the two together, you get 72.5. Can you please name me 72 centers better than Jason Collier in the NBA? You obviously don't know much about the draft either. The majority of NBA players don't come in and blow everyone away their first year. It is a constant cycle of improvement that you can only gain through experience and working hard. You'll probably be writing off Griffin if he comes in this year and averages 9 and 6 in 25 minutes a game. So let's talk some about Collier. Don't give me this **** about he's slow, or doesn't have good athletism. That doesn't make you a good player. Give me some statistics, some facts, some information. You told me the other day in the chat that you, like me, were a fan of Sam Perkins. Exactly how is Sam Perkins right now that much better than Collier? He has a little more range on his jumper, and well, that's it. He's much slower running the floor, much worse in post defense, much worse in hustle... should he be cut too? Or is adding 3 feet to your jumper the difference between being CBA material and being a "ZRB favorite". Let's talk about some of the things he can do. At least average in running the floor-- if you guys think he doesn't have enough speed compared to most NBA centers you need to see how slow a lot of these guys are. Offensively, he really has a lot of skills. Has a nice lefty hook near the baseline that is very hard to defend. When he's aggressive inside, he can really score with anyone. He has the post moves, and the soft touch. In addition to that, he has an excellent jumper out to 20-21 feet, probably past Mo Taylor's range, and he can space the floor really well. Did you see how good he did against Shaq and the Lakers on election night in that area? What also really helps him is that when he sets picks, he sets them like a brick wall, and then he knows where to go to get open for the jumper after Steve or Cuttino is doubled. That knowledge and understanding of the game is extremely rare for someone playing his first month in the NBA. He knows the fundamentals of the game very well, but to most those types of things are overshadowed by mad hops and windmill dunks. Defensively, he's not the best, but he's still learning. He really knows how to box out for the rebounds, and he works his ass off in the post. He has the hustle that Cato and others lack, and I can tell he will be successful one day based on that alone. Don't agree? Let's look at some numbers from when Collier was healthy and given the backup center minutes. Season numbers are irrelevant, as he was hurt after the Celtics game in November and was clearly not the same player afterwards. Minutes that he picked up at the end of games are also mostly irrelevant. Take a look at the numbers when he was fully healthy, given the role on the team Rudy needs him to fill, and was given a chance to get in the flow of the game. Lakers November 7 Collier-- 10 pts (4-6 shooting), 4 reb, 13 minutes Boy, this sure screams CBA. In his first week in the NBA, he comes out and does everything we need him to do. He spaces the floor, rebounds, hits the open shots, plays Shaq with as much courage as you can asks, and teams with Hakeem to limit Shaq to a mere 24 points and 7 rebounds on 8-19 shooting. The fans gave him a standing ovation. Grizzlies November 9 Collier-- 8 pts (4-7 shooting), 4 reb, 20 minutes Again, he did everything you could ask. What more could you expect from a rookie in his first month? He hit the open shots, rebounded, set picks well, defended well, etc. His counterpart that game, Ike Austin, was limited to 2 points and 2 rebounds in 18 minutes of play on 1-5 shooting. Blazers November 11 Collier-- 12 pts (5-9 shooting), 4 reb, 21 minutes Another horrible performance. Collier goes out against the deepest frontcourt in the NBA, on a terrible shooting game for the rest of the Rockets, and still finds a way to continually contribute on both ends of the floor. His counterpart on the Blazers, Shawn Kemp, was limited to 8 points and 5 rebounds in 24 minutes. Lakers November 12 Collier-- 10 pts, 3 reb, 16 min He is just pathetic isn't he? Against Shaq and the Lakers, on the road, in the first month of his career, he only gives 10 points and 3 rebounds in 16 minutes. I mean, if he continues on that pace for starters minutes, he would have 20 points and 6 rebounds. Horrible. He should be getting 50 and 20 in the first month. And how did he do on defense? Pretty damn terrific. This was Shaquille O'Neal, one of the most dominant big men of all time. Of all-time. And Collier teamed with Hakeem at the center spot that game to limit Shaq to just 14 points and 5 rebounds on 6-14 shooting. No, it wasn't just Dream at all. Suns November 18 Collier-- 6 pts, 2 reb, 14 minutes This was the game that put the Rockets over .500 for the first time in since 1999. And Collier did his job just fine. Hit his shots, set picks well-- did everything you could ask from a young player in the first month of his career. He also limited his competition, Jake Tsaklidas, to just 2 points and 1 rebound. Pacers November 21 Collier-- 0 pts (0-5), 2 reb, 15 min The only time he didn't bring it on the offensive end. So? Everyone's allowed to have a bad game, or at least they should be. No one can be perfect every night. Those other games should significantly outweigh this one, except according to bashers like yourself I'm sure. And he definitely didn't forget the defensive end. Remember Jeff Foster? The Pacers center many of you were hoping to get in an Hakeem sign and trade? Collier held him to 1 point and 0 rebounds in 12 minutes head to head. Celtics November 22 Collier-- 7 pts, 2 reb, 21 minutes This was the game he got hurt in, so I'm not sure how relevant some of these stats are. But he still did a pretty damn good job, in a game that most of the Rockets couldn't throw the ball in the ocean. For a comparison, Steve Francis had 6 points in 27 minutes in that game. No, these aren't all the games Collier played. But they are all the games in which he was both healthy and given the minutes and role he needed to succeed. Can you really expect him to contribute huge numbers and production when he's thrown on the court for a few minutes in garbage time, with no time period to get into the flow, no structured offense (which he strives in), etc.? And can you really expect him to produce major numbers when his knee isn't near 100%? Those numbers aren't Shaq-like. But you know what? They're pretty damn good for a rookie in the first month of his NBA career, and he still can't seem to get any respect around here. So many of us seemed to crave Austin Croshere last summer at the same time they bashed Collier, never even thinking that Croshere completely sucked for two years. He never had a stretch like Collier did in the limited time he was healthy. And he's a pretty solid NBA player. ZRB, tell me this. Who's the last CBA center, or a center who should be in the NBA, that came into the NBA, and immediately, in the first month of his career, contributed similar numbers and on court results to Collier this year? I can't think of many, if any at all.
Adding muscle will help his rebounding: When you can't jump, you have to push people out of position to rebound. I remember on several occasions last year when he'd lean on someone only to find that he couldn't move them. He has the rebounding skills for someone who can't jump. He just can't use them because he's not strong enough. Adding muscle will help him as a defender: Collier knows how to put his body on someone inside. He uses his mass appropriately. Once again, because he can't leap, he is at a disadvantage. But adding strength will help him move people off of the block, or make them work a little more for position. Once again, the problem isn't effort. Adding muscle will help him as an intimidator: Ever see Shawn Bradley intimidate? Charles Oakley can intimidate because he has the strength to back it up. If Collier decides he wants to be an intimidator, strength will help him.
You know, I was thinking about this in the back of my mind too. I mean, most information that gets out tends to get out for a reason. Most times, it's not for anything sneaky, but that doesn't mean there isn't a motive. After all, we get good reports about players every year about this time. I remember reading an article in the Chronicle about how promising Cuttino was looking, but it certainly wasn't because he was being shopped around. On the other hand, this didn't appear in the Chronicle or anything, right? Maybe that doesn't make a difference; it's not like teams don't pick up on anything that doesn't come through "established media." Sorry about the rambling. You must admit that it is slow around here and it's kind of fun to second-guess the team's motives.
Cat- averaging 5 points and 2 rebounds thanks to mostly garbage time and 2 good games does not impress me. Shaq having a bad game or two (thanks to Hakeem, not Collier), does not impress me. If Collier is such a good defender (as you tried to prove with your "He held Shaq to 14 points" argument) why didn't he get more minutes when he was healthy? Because those were fluke games. Collier put up less than stellar numbers against garbage competition. I saw him play exactly two good games. I also saw him struggle to outrebound 6'6" third string guards when the game was out of reach. He is slow, and this weight will only slow him down more. His only asset is his jumper, and I wasn't impressed with that much either. Here are some statistics for you Cat, since you keep wanting me to use them: 3.09 ppg 1.6 rpg .26 apg .09 spg .13 bpg 9.65 mpg 38.03 fg% Wow, what a jumper. Yes, he had a few 10 point 2 board games, but most of the time, his stats looked like this: 2 points, 0 boards. You don't have to be a 10 year vet to pull down more rebounds than Collier did. Being a rookie is no excuse. At 7' , he should be able to pull down more than 1 board per game. Even when he scored his 12 points, he only managed 4 rebounds. That is not what I want from my backup center. Carlos could have done better, instead they opted to cut him, while keeping Collier. Terrible decision.
May I now take this opportunity to once again thank the Rockets for that fine exhibition of horrendous shooting they put on in the first game I actually got to be home from college to watch. Becasue I didn't see the early games and Collier was out the rest of the season whenever I did get to see Rockets games, I didn't realize he had a number of quality games under his belt. Based on those numbers (even thought 5 or 6 games doesn't mean too much) I guess I will save at least a little hope that Collier will become a quite servicable back-up in this league.
Cat- averaging 5 points and 2 rebounds thanks to mostly garbage time Dude you're such an idiot. Go back and average my stats... they are well above 5 and 2. They are more like 7 and 3 in about 16 minutes, excellent numbers for a backup center in the NBA. And he accumulated those numbers in the early 2nd and early 4th quarters of important games. Even when he scored his 12 points, he only managed 4 rebounds. You don't agree with Collier getting 4 rebounds in 21 minutes, yet sometimes you support Mo Taylor who can get 2 rebounds in near 30 minutes? If Collier is such a good defender (as you tried to prove with your "He held Shaq to 14 points" argument) why didn't he get more minutes when he was healthy? Collier is a good player, but for him to get more minutes, he would have to be a better player than Hakeem Olajuwon. If you expected that from him, your expectations were way too high. having a bad game or two (thanks to Hakeem, not Collier Your proof is? Here are some statistics for you Cat, since you keep wanting me to use them Season statistics are completely irrelevant when talking about Collier. Try again please. It's hard to rebound and get proper lift on your shot when you have a serious knee problem. Only use stats from when he was fully healthy, because he will be healthy next season. BTW, he was only fully healthy until that Celtics game on November 22. You'll notice his stats significantly decline after the injury, and they aren't valid at all.
For some reason there are still people that want Collier to be some kind of megastar or superstar. People are so use to superstars that if you're NOT a superstar you must suck. Bruce Bowen isn't a dominant scorer, he's an ok scorer, a pretty good perimeter shooter and an All-NBA defensive player and a solid role player and people think pick ups like that are horrible. You can't win a championship without a role player, and you would think that Rocket fans of all people would realize that. Granted you have good players to go along with the great players like Hakeem and Clyde, but it's team basketball and Francis and Mobley are not going to win 50 games by themselves. Collier can be that solid back-up center we need, sombody who can provide depth, rebounding, good shooting from the center position and cna burn minutes. People rip Kleine, but he has a ring. Wennington and Luc are considered guys who suck, they played a key role in 3 championship teams. People laugh at Perdue and he played an important role in 4 championship teams. Chucky Brown and Matt Bullard have rings. So does Tyronn Lue. Solid role players, especially one at a position that is a team weakness is key.
The Cat, I've come to the conclusion that you need to have 2 monikers to use. One for your regular posts(The Cat) & one for responding to Collier/Langhi/whoever else bashers. That moniker should be "THE LION" , because you always manage to come out ROARING at the bashers. What do you think?
Because Mo Taylor scores well on a regular basis. We don't need scoring from our backup center, we get that from Mo. We need rebounding and defense from Collier, and he doesn't even come close to providing that. How can you ignore Collier's 0 point, 0 board, 10 minute games while you praise his 7 point 3 board games? I look at all the games Collier played in, and he averaged a pitiful 3 points, and 1.6 boards. I saw him play. He is big, slow, and talentless. He gives the Rockets nothing that they need. Rocketsmillenium- the problem is, Collier isn't even solid. He played 1 or 2 solid games, and 21 trashy games. He struggled against garbage-time competition. He is not even close to being "solid", talentwise.
I think my only expectation for Jason "The AntiShaq" Collier is to be an immovable object down low so that weak side D can block some shots and save their fouls.
As one who "ripped" Bowen. I'll take a shot hear. Bowen is a fine back-up, but if you pencil him in a starting 3 you will be hard pressed to find 1 hand full of starting 3s who are worse overall players. If Bowen even had Mario Elie's non-remarkable offensive game-- an outstanding (versus Bowen's "decent") set shot plus can go to the hole effeciently when overplayed (getting fouled or converting the drive with high frequency), he would be a very good STARTING role player for the Spurs. But Bowen's game isn't as all-around as Elie, making him not the kind of role player you want to START. Of course if he had Elie's offsensive game of a few years ago he wouldn't have been had for about 1 million. This isn't a knock on the Spurs, they did the right thing getting him because they really suck at that position, but he will be one of their weaknesses if forced to start nontheless. Except before we need a quality back-up center less than we need a quality starting center. I am hopeful Collier becomes a good and consistent back-up center that can offer a different look (a C who stretches the defense), but he isn't close to a sure thing yet. Of course we should be patient, but I agree with ZRB if his main point is that we shouldn't stop looking for a consistent starting quality NBA centers because we think Cato/Collier are the answers, that would show overconfidence based from past production or even "reasonable" expectations.
