No one is going to hell. Not only does hell not exist, it isn't even scripturally accurate. The concept is completely void of logic in every way, shape, and form. I like Joel if only because he's extremely talented. He chooses his words wisely and knows how to charm with that blinding smile. I've been to Lakewood a few times and they really put on a show. I went to my parents' church this weekend and clenched my teeth through rigid fire-and-brimstone, gnashing-of-teeth preaching. I'll take Osteen any day of the week over that condemnation bull****. Still, I look forward to the day (and it's coming soon) where it's the norm rather than the exception for evangelicals to accept gay people. No, not just the PEOPLE, but the "sin". There will come a day...
I understand why some Christians get hung up on homosexuality as a special sin, because it gets prominent billing in a couple of spots in the New Testament, where the writer highlights a few particular sins, such as: 1 Cor 6:9-10 But, Paul immediately goes on to explain these sins are paid for by Christ with all the others: 1 Cor 6:11 Some would go on to object that homosexuals persist in their sin. But, I'd like to see someone dodge the 'covetous' tag (and, given the currently popular evangelical definition of idolatry, they can't dodge that one either). So, I think Osteen is on pretty safe ground, Scripturally, here even if he's wrong on so many other things. Can't deny the Biblical condemnation as a sin, but can't deny salvation either. Some people will still call him a hater, of course, but you need to take that up with the Bible.
Biblically, a sin is any action or transgression that is contrary to the will of God. (now, of course, your next question will be, "Well, what is the will of God?"... ... heh..... wellllllll.....that's a good question)
so then people who commit these acts should be put to death? cause you left that part of the passage off.
but if one's justification for claiming homosexuality is a sin is Leviticus, doesn't Leviticus likewise declare other practices abhorrent/detestable, like eating shellfish? Does Mr. Osteen not enjoy a nice shrimp cocktail from time to time?
This is a perfect example. No one that thinks being gay is so evil has that same view of being drunk. Or being covetous. Or idolizing things.
thats what the old testament stated. BUT... (as i have stated several times before) Jesus loves and died for all sinners. i.e. the new testament story where the Pharisee tried to trap Jesus by bringing a woman caught in the act of adultery. the old testament commanded that she should be stoned. however, Jesus forgave her of her sin and then told her “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.” John 8:1-11
Apparently not. <iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aU5kek3D-4I" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>
Ah ha! You are correct, sir! Thus the second part of my post (see the fine print). There's all kinds of kooky stuff in that bible. Such as... As Christians, if my brother dies without having any kids with his wife, it is my duty to mate with her and bear children. And if I don't, then it's my other brother's duty to do this. This is both old and new testament, as well as out of Jesus' mouth. want more? I've got more.
Precisely. I like that Joel made a point to affirm the authority of scripture to Piers rather than make a personal statement. The thing about Christianity is that it is not up to any one man, no matter how influential he may be, to decide what is right or wrong. The only ultimate authority is the word of God, and (despite what people may say), it is pretty clear on homosexuality. It is also pretty clear about the subject of grace, which is lost on way too many people both inside and outside of the church. God forbid that we Christians should be judged based on how we live all the time with lustful thoughts, deceitful words and actions, and general lack of self-control. None of us would make it. It says clearly that we are saved by grace through faith, and then immediately we begin a long continuous journey of transformation by the "renewing" of our mind, which is a spiritual transformation, not by natural ability. I am always against any attempt by Christians to demonize homosexuals or paint them as baser creatures than other human beings, and the truth is that whatever criticisms many may have against Joel Osteen, he has this one thing right: his job isn't to tell people that they're bad and going to hell. His job is to lead them to Christ. And too often, Christians end up driving people away from Christ by their words rather than leading them to Him. On that one count, which in Christianity is the Great Commission, Joel is doing a far better job than many of his detractors even within the church.
I have never heard a Joel Osteen sermon but I have heard other Prosperity Gospel sermons and in many ways I find them more unsettling than the fire and brimstone sermons. While they are not indulging in self-righteousness and judgment they are indulging at times in simplistic happy talk and justifying faith based on materialism. Its not for me to tell Christians how to practice their religion but I often wonder that for all of the success of the Prosperity Gospel is it something that in the long run is good for Christianity? For example there are analogs to the Prosperity Gospel in Buddhism.. I heard a talk by someone who followed that and it boiled down to that through following Buddhist beliefs you could gain material wealth and power. It was essentially a repackaged "How to Win Friends and Influence People". While I don't think Buddhism should be about Zen asceticism I think it is more damaging to the principles of it to practice it merely to feel good about yourself and / or for personal gain. Sorry if this moves this to the D & D but I get the feeling this thread is headed that way anyway.
Interesting. Hadn't seen that. That said I'm guessing Joel Osteen hasn't been to a turkey farm recently or been up on what they are feeding poultry and cattle these days. I'm also wondering if when he talked about eating fish if that includes catfish.
Hard Christianity is the same as Jihad group of Islam. Jesus teaching is about love and forgiveness. He was having dinner with sinners to teach them the way to heaven figurativly speaking.
The OT Law has several kinds of proscriptions, including some based on cleanliness. In Acts 10, Peter has a vision in which God tells him “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean,” which is commonly understood to mean that Jesus had made creation clean and it would no longer make you unclean for worshipping God. It's a bit of a different thing from rules about moral behavior. I referenced it earlier, but the rage now in my conservative evangelical circles is to expand 'idolatry' to anything you put your trust in above God, conciously or unconsciously. So money, spouse, family, job, skills, beauty, whatever can all be idols if you find yourself afraid of losing these things. The definition is so expansive that everyone will freely admit to be idolators, confident in forgiveness and salvation despite the persistence of this sin. Persistent sin isn't a problem.
