regardless full season, half season, 10 games.. that years bulls had a healthy jordan in the playoffs.. where it mattered. just like when the sonics regularly took us out. If we would have faced each other who knows what would have happened? Esp with mad max during the first championship run. It would have been a pretty sweet sight to see all those great players go at it.
It is amazing that people do not mention Pippen when talking about MJ's greatness. I know we hate Pippen here but it still amazes me how people underrate Pippen in his prime. For me, everytime I think about Jordan's greatness I think about Pippen and well they played off of each other on the defensive end and offensive end. It was truly amazing to watch. The same can not be said for Dream in 1994 which was one of the best or THE BEST individual performance in the season and playoffs ever. It is truly ashame that people who weren't around to witness it or FORGOT it still will argue that "it was because MJ wasn't there". BS, if you watched those playoffs, you would have known that nothing was going to stop the dream, and if you think that Cartwright or whatever scrub center was going to hold Dream you are mistaken. On the other hand, we had a couple of players that could keep Jordan under 40 and Pippen under 30. I am done with this argument, everyone has their opinions and none of us are doubting MJ's greatness but at worst Hakeem should be a step behind MJ when talked about in the greatest players debate but unfortunately that will never happen.
and hakeem had clyde and barkley one year and barkley and pippen, i know all past their prime, but you could argue that in jordan's last two championship years he was past his prime.
read carefully... "We all love Dream, but 6 rings for 6 consecutive full seasons MJ played" notice "full" in there? besides...we could argue all day, but you really think 1/4 of the regular season is going to get you fully ready for a playoff run when you've been out a year and 3/4? and he still lead his team to the ECF... and btw, i'm in no way trying to belittle Dream's accomplishments. those 2 years were incredible.
Why do you even bother bringing that up? All those guys were shadows of their former selves, including Hakeem. Jordan wasn't any better as an old man... he couldn't even lead the Wizards to the playoffs in what was probably the worst conference in history. Right. So Wilt gets hurt for an entire season, comes back with less than 10 games to go in the regular season, leads his team to the finals, and loses in 7 games, and people say he's a "choker." Jordan comes back with 17 games left, the Bulls get pounded by the Magic, and people say he was "rusty," and therefore it's as if he wasn't there at all. Suuuuuuure. It had nothing to do with the Bulls' lack of an all-star power forward that year (Ho Grant, Rodman). Nothing at all.
And with all those individual awards, he never could lead his team to a winning record until Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant came to town. MJ won when he had help. Dream got to the Finals in his second season when he had help, and won rings when he got help the 2nd time around. The fact that the Bulls lost MJ, replaced him with Pete Myers and a rookie Kukoc and still won over 50 games should show you just how good that team really was. They don’t win any rings without MJ for sure, but they clearly were a very good team. In his six consecutive full seasons he had the games best SF and best perimeter defender, an All-Star caliber PF and a HOF PF (would be if they didn’t consider off the court stuff), a solid rotation of big centers to bang and a boatload of guards that could shoot. MJ put up better playoff numbers in 95 then he did for the second 3 peat, so please save the he wasn’t ready garbage. The Bulls lost because they didn’t have a PF, which is crucial to their system (having one that could defend the perimeter and rotate to the interior fast enough to grab boards or defend). It’s kinda hard to win a title when your SF and SG are your team’s leading rebounders. MJ didn’t get better the next 3 seasons…the Spurs just happened to give them the best PF for theis system for free. Dude, they were all well past their prime when they hooked up (look at the games missed, including playoff games). And you can argue that MJ was past his prime, but ya can also argue that he wasn’t as beat because he chilled for 1.5 years.
1. wilt? really? you're comparing wilt's era to this day and age? 2. so how do you view the spurs' championship team during the lockout year? is it legitimate? 3. horace grant? i'll give you rodman...but horace grant. lol.
Horace Grant was an All-Star caliber PF. He was an excellent defender on the interior and perimiter, could run, had a jumper, could rebound, block shots and get steals. How many teams had a better 3rd option during the Bulls first 3 peat? Hmm, waiting.... Considering that we have been dying for a PF like that for the past 4 years or so I'm shocked at how much you are underrating his impact....
You forgot to paste the rest of your sentence. But that's cool if you changed your mind on that last part. Michael Jordan had one of his highest scoring games in the spring of 1995 and averaged nearly 32 points per game against the Magic. I don't think the "greatest player ever" needs more than a month's worth of regular season games to knock the "rust" off... The Bulls lost in 1995 because they didn't have a good team. They would have probably continued losing if they didn't address their problems, whether Jordan played a full season or not.
That last part is inaccurate...my bad. But I didn't include it in any copy and paste, cause well...it's not that important. However, since I've been called out, I'll go ahead and restate that sentence to accurately read... We all love Dream, but 6 rings for 6 consecutive full seasons MJ played > 2 rings that Dream won when MJ wasn't playing for 1.75 of those years. Go ahead and bash that. If you really think Dream was a better player than Jordan...I'll FULLY copy and paste this again... "Jordan's individual accolades and accomplishments include five NBA MVP (Most Valuable Player) awards, ten All-NBA First Team designations, nine All-Defensive First Team honors, fourteen NBA All-Star Game appearances and three All-Star MVPs, ten scoring titles, three steals titles, six NBA Finals MVP awards, and the 1988 NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award. He holds the NBA record for highest career regular season scoring average with 30.1 points per game, as well as averaging a record 33.4 points per game in the playoffs. In 1999, he was named the greatest North American athlete of the 20th century by ESPN, and was second to Babe Ruth on the Associated Press's list of athletes of the century."
Missed this little gem of a post... 1. Individual accolades... great, but Wilt crushes Jordan as far as individual accolades go. Not to mention Jordan is the league's all-time leader in field goal attempts per game by a wide margin. I should hope he would score a lot, taking that many shots. All-defense/all-NBA teams? Suspect. I remember a number of years back when Doug Christie came in 4th in DPOY voting, and he was the first guard on the list. Yet, he didn't make 1st team all-defense (Kobe & Kidd did). Hmmmm. Popularity contest much? You'd have a hard time convincing anyone who was actually watching games that either of those two were better defenders than Christie that year. Jordan benefited both from visibility and from the fact that Pippen always had the toughest cover. It's a lot easier to look like a great defender when you consistently guard the second option instead of the first. 2. Athlete of the century by ESPN? WOOOOHOOOOOOO! No one cares. Funny how I accuse you of getting your opinions from ESPN, and here you are citing EPSN's little list as if it means anything at all. They also named Jordan the best college b-baller ever. College. Over Jabbar, Maravich, Walton and... how about this... JAMES WORTHY, since it was Worthy who led that team to a title, not Jordan. When Worthy left, Jordan never made it back... even with the likes of Kenny Smith, Sam Perkins, and Brad Daugherty around him. Oh, and I love how Jim Thorpe was considered Babe Ruth's superior right after they both retired, and now ESPN's list mysteriously puts Ruth well above Thorpe. Hmmmmmm. Once again: meaningless popularity contest. 1. If you dismiss Wilt and Russell's accomplishments so easily, it's pretty obvious to me that you don't know what you're talking about. Yet more evidence that you know only ESPN propaganda and think that the NBA "didn't really start" until Magic and Bird arrived. 2. Yes. And what does that have to do with anything again? 3. Aaaaaand even MORE evidence that you know only what ESPN feeds you. Grant was a legitimate threat to block your shot, a great rebounder, good defender, plenty strong, he could really run the floor, and he could hit 17-footers consistently. He was an all-star player. Even you should recall that he was on the team (the Magic) that sent the Bulls packing. And yet you seem to be under the impression that he was chopped liver who was blessed to have Jordan carrying him. Nuh-uh. Jordan without Pippen + All-Star PF equals a whole lot of nothin'. Hakeem carried more of his team's load in 1993-94 than Jordan ever did.
That was copied and pasted from Wikipedia. Guess I should have included a bibliography so people like you don't take it and run with it.
Wow, really splitting hairs here, aren't we? In all of this, you still haven't given me one bit of evidence why Dream was a better player than Jordan, which is where this whole argument spawned from. So instead, you decide to make arguments based on ticky tack things like this. Very intelligent.
Why can't you just say Jordan's 6 championships are greater than Olajuwon's two? Why do you add the rest (inaccurate or not)? It does seem as if you are trying to degrade Olajuwon's championships by including that. It would make sense if the Rockets had continually lost to the Bulls those years, but they didn't. In fact, they beat them a lot when they played during the regular season. No one knows who would have won if they played in the finals, obviously, but the Rockets didn't win their championships because Jordan wasn't playing (averaging nearly his career playoff average in 1995). They won because they were the best team in the NBA and Olajuwon was the most dominant player in the league.
Argument? That statement wasn't an argument. It's a fact. I quote you, pal: "MJ is the best player ever. Period." I'm arguing that he wasn't, not specifically that Hakeem was better. Want a specific guy? Wilt. You presented your little Wikipedia entry as evidence to support your point: Jordan is the best ever. I gave counter-arguments. You come back with "I got that from Wikipedia." Uhhhh... so? Once again, why do I care where it comes from? Whether it comes from Wikipedia, a Martian, Paris Hilton, or from your own mouth doesn't matter, as long as you're putting it forth as your argument. Either way I gave you counter-arguments, which you've failed to address at all.
