[ClutchFans] The numbers are clear: Patrick Beverley deserves to start over Jeremy Lin

So wait. This turned into an argument about Beverley and Lin?

 

One uses the word "deserves" when they believe a strong case has been made for a player to start over the other. When neither player has a strong case to start over the other, than we must make a tentative choice which may be based on "fit" or whatever else seems relevant. Clutch has evidently become more convinced after nearly 3 months that Beverley starting for the team is the right choice.

Its not like one must either strongly agree or strongly disagree with a player starting. One can be close to the middle, and then move in either direction as the evidence accumulates.

 

Weird huh?

 

So much tension over a single player. Lin is spoken of as having "upside" or a "high ceiling" very often, yet, Beverly, who is a month older, does not seem to be given the same creedence. They both have their strengths and I hope that one of them can continue to grow for the good of the team.

 

Nah, just tired of the constant pedestal that Lin is placed on. Some of his fans--non Rockets fans--discuss him like a LeBron talent. That is bothersome because it is so inaccurate. It brainwashes them into thinking Lin is entitled to start and be set up to be the franchise player. It annoys me when we win a game, but there is a complaint that he didn't get enough PT, even after turning the ball over or going "missing" on the court. I don't understand the mindset of Player over Team. Maybe it's the player/coach/fan in me.

I blame a certain media for these fans, and I'd say more, but I know that I'd be labeled as a "racist." That's so far from the truth, but again, Lin fans don't understand truth. They only understand feelings, practice dysfunctional loyalty and experience a general disconnect from the Rockets identity.

 

Your assumption is wrong. Clutch is going off the lineup +/- stats at NBA.com. The numbers pertain to when one or the other is sharing the floor with them.

 

This sounds reasonable. I really think this will all resolve itself as Lin settles back in to his role (which is hopefully clearly defined !??!). He's shown that he's capable of being a productive and important player off the bench. Given the same minutes, his PER, scoring and assists avg will all continue to be higher than Bev's - and Bev will continue to do his energy thing and make the starters play some D. It's a win win.

 

To be fair, when we/they talked about "fit" in the offseason, wasn't it all about Harden? I don't remember anybody talking about how Parsons might fit better with Bev than Lin. I don't remember anybody was talking about how Howard would fit with Bev. In fact, most people would think Lin's PnR ability would fit Howard better. To be honest, did you think about Parsons when you were talking about fit back then?

No, it's all about how Lin and Harden were redundant but since Harden was clearly better, you put Lin to the bench. Honestly, wasn't that the whole "fit" thing was about?

Now lasvr8's analysis actually shows that Harden plays pretty much the same with Lin or with Bev. It's Parsons who apparently doesn't fit Lin. But why? Nobody ever pointed out the Parsons-Lin problem last season. Everybody was worried about Harden-Lin.

Yes, numbers don't lie. But correlation does not always means cause. You have to find what is causing the performance discrepancy.

BTW, ignoring the PF position last season is a huge problem in your numbers. It is exactly because of the volatile situation there that would create "noise" in statistical results. It is the unknown factor that might have skewed the numbers.

 

Again, the reasons you mentioned are why I have defected from Lin sites - I'm done with putting up with racist/delusional/conspiracy comments that I would try to squelch. I'm a fan of his who is now a Rox fan - but he needs to prove himself just like any other NBA player - not be coddled by fans who make up things as they try to live vicariously through Lin.

 

You know, the sad thing is, the starting PG thing could have been an interesting debate if it wasn't about the Lin fans. Now you can't agree or disagree without being dismissed as being in some kind of group.

 

I don't think there was a Parsons - Lin problem last year. This year, there are more starters taking more shots - so with Lin taking more shots than Bev, someone is not getting as many by comparison - that person happens to be his handsomeness.

 

Lasvr8's analysis suggests that Harden's offensive production remains the same.

The fit in this case is not whether Harden fits with Lin, because Harden is going to be primarily utilized regardless of which PG on the floor. The fit is in terms of whether Lin fits with Harden, because Lin's skills are redundant with Harden on the court, so the question is whether Lin has the skills that compliment Harden.

Those complimentary skills are not necessarily just about scoring. It could be defense, rebounding, off-ball movement etc.

 

What do the stats say about Jones starting with Bev vs Lin? Is he receiving some of the love being taken away from Parsons with Lin in there? eye test seems to say so - just curious.

 

Maybe there's still time for that? Maybe we can all get along and discuss things rationally in a fact based manner??? :grin: I'm curious if there was some debate on this forum with the Lowry/Dragic thing. Were there LOF's (Lowry) or DOF's then? I assume not - but I'm sure each had some ardent supporters with good points. Can we get back to that? Or am I romanticizing something that was equally combative?

 

lin gets it from fans of other teams, fans of his OWN team, and fans of other players. they all get a great amount of this crap and as professional athletes that choose to be on social network, they all need to learn to tune this out, especially if it comes between you and a teammate.

 

I don't know what the stats say, but watching the games I would definitely say Howard, Harden, Jones, and Parsons all hurt Lin's ability to "attack" to some extent. Parsons this season is taking on a more playmaking role, while Jones is creating more and more of his own shots. Morey has specifically included Howard when talking about why bringing Lin off the bench.

 

I still believe that Lin is both better than Beverley, and better than any player we can get him in the trade. I also don't regret that Morey gave him that contract. This year he's shown to me that he's worth $8mil/yr. Last year, not so much.

But I still believe that he's better as a 6th man. Perhaps it's because I've never been a big believer that the best player at a position always start. So I've never thought of Lin coming off the bench as a demotion. Or that he's somehow no longer worthy of being a starter. It simply means that him coming off the bench maximizes the Rockets chances of winning IMO. Which is what I personally care about the most.

 

Agreed. I hope they really use him as a 6th man - hasn't always been the case this year. But he needs to show that he deserves to finish games and play meaningful minutes on a game-by-game basis.

 

Seems like it's just semantics to me that you're arguing. No one thought Lin "deserved" to start last year because it's a given. His backup was Toney FREAKING Douglas for Christ sakes. Just like no one thought Parsons "deserves" his starting job last year instead of Delfino, or this year instead of Garcia.

The whole "deserving" thing only came about because of how close Lin and Beverley are in terms of skills, as opposed to say, Asik vs. Greg Smith or Harden vs. James Anderson. We had these same debates back with Rafer and Brooks, Brooks and Lowry, Dragic, and Lowry. The "deserving" aspect in discussions only come into play when two players are close enough in production that warrant the label.

 

I stand corrected then. It's surprising to see then that despite playing in 3 more games with the other starting 4, Lin only had 3 more minutes of court time, guess it shows the short leash he has.

But riddle me this....based on these numbers cannot you apply the same theory to OKC and argue they are much better off with Reggie Jackson starting than Russel Westbrook?

I agree like the other guy said, it's a matter of fit for Harden. But it's hard for me to accept the argument based on pure numbers, when the same number argue in favor of starting Reggie Jackson over Russel Westbrook.
http://stats.nba.com/teamLineups.ht...erPage=25&MeasureType=Advanced&PerMode=Totals