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[ClutchFans] Rockets Fans Can Give Thanks For The Things That Went Wrong

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Clutch, Nov 22, 2012.

  1. arno_ed

    arno_ed Member

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    Thanks for the article Clutch, you said exactly what I have been thinking ever since we got Harden. This is basically the best of all the possible trades we almost made.
     
  2. RoxBeliever

    RoxBeliever Member

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    Thanks for this, Clutch! We'll remember to temper our criticisms or negative prognosis of the team or any player in the future. Good things do come to those who work hard and just try to do the right thing. Like the Rockets organization. They may not get it perfect 100% but you know their hearts are in the right place.

    Hope that Royce White reads this thread. Happy Thanksgiving to all!
     
  3. Cautiously_Op

    Cautiously_Op Member

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    Thank you. A great summary to how things evolved and settled.

    Morris and Jones are both athletic. Hopefully they'll see more playing time.

    Looking forward to the game tonight.
     
  4. Raven

    Raven Member

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    Someone gets it!

    :)
     
  5. thekad

    thekad Member

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    Man, that Pau deal was horrendous. Even after the Harden deal, I can't look at Morey the same.
     
  6. Raven

    Raven Member

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    Make no mistake, that deal had Alexander's fingerprints all over it. I think Les had been breathing down Morey's neck to get a "name", any name, just to put on billboards. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Now Les has his names, and his slogans, Lin'sanity and Beard'sanity, soon to be followed by 14thpick'sanity.

    ;)
     
  7. Rip Van Rocket

    Rip Van Rocket Contributing Member

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    Yes, the Rockets have been very fortunate. I wish Clutchfans wouldn't be so obsessed with wins and losses this year and just watch as some of the pieces are starting to come together. We have the youngest team in the league, we have new players emerging as solid contributors, we have a potential star in Harden, we have cap space to add another star, and we really haven't even had a look at our rookies yet. I'm very excited about the future. Can you just imagine how this team would take off if Lin starts knocking down some shots.
     
  8. napalm06

    napalm06 Huge Flopping Fan

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    I can see that this debate will never end.

    To me the tanking debate on Clutchfans has always been 2 camps: build through the draft and lose at all costs vs. acquire assets and make the playoffs if possible. I don't think the second camp is best described as 'instant gratification'. Those are just a small % of dreamers.

    As Clutch says, the pick(s) obtained eventually turned into Harden, but that represents sort of a hybrid strategy. The loudest pro-tankers on this board never envisioned trading for Harden, but rather getting the lowest possible pick and enjoying poor years with the new pick at the helm. I have a feeling the tankers that I'm always going in circles with would have pulled out their classic "stop-gap" label and attached it to Harden's forehead.

    In the end I'm pleased with the result just like anyone, so I guess it's all moot!
     
    #28 napalm06, Nov 23, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2012
  9. BeeBeard

    BeeBeard Member

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    Even though Basketball Reasons thankfully nixed it, even the idea of the trade still lives on.

    The worst thing is how it has given the Rockets this underved reputation for being a dumping ground for broken down players, bigs who are past their prime, and just bad contracts in general. Like the Rockets are some dumpster for disposing of the mistakes of other GMs.

    There's a lot of snide I bet the Rockets would want him going on with other fanbases. And it's like no, Houston doesn't want your garbage, thanks anyway.
     
  10. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    We should be thankful for David Stern at least for one thing.
     
  11. BimaThug

    BimaThug Resident Capologist
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    Agreed. I've never really been much for tanking but rather have favored Morey's strategy of compiling assets to make opportunistic trades while continuing to compete. One need only look to organizations like the Wizards (which actually has a good owner committed to winning) to see how easily a franchise can get stuck in a losing culture and how difficult it can be to extricate the franchise and its players from that culture.

    For sake of argument, while it would have been a little tougher to accomplish, the Rockets still could have conceivably made the playoffs last season and also gotten Harden. For instance, in place of the package the Rockets used to move up to #12 (using the #14 pick, Dalembert and a 2014 second rounder), the Rockets could have substituted the #14 pick with either (a) the #16 pick, an extra second rounder and cash or (b) the #16 and #18 picks, getting back a future second rounder from Milwaukee in the latter instance. Houston would have had all the pieces necessary to acquire Harden in that case. In the former instance, they still could have gotten one of Royce White, Tyler Zeller or Terrence Jones in the draft.

    Yes, it was fortuitous that it worked out the way it did for the Rockets, but that doesn't definitely prove that "tanking" (which the Rockets did NOT do - they choked, plain and simple) was the right strategy.

    And for the record, with the Rockets now sporting the league's youngest team, there should be no more talk of "tanking" this season. They will simply develop the young talent on the roster, hope to win as many games as they can working within that framework, and take their chances with some lottery luck or the chance at playoff success.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. MrButtocks

    MrButtocks Member

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    I'm thankful the lakers didn't get to form a Paul/Kobe/Dwight dynasty. Not only could they win now, but they'd have two young superstars to fall on when Kobe retires. Meanwhile, we'd have a Lowry/Nene core to fall on when Gasol's contract expired. Screw that.
     
  13. kjayp

    kjayp Member

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    Good read and agree...

    jus wish there was some way where when people voted yea or nay on deals (or non deals) it stuck on their profile... For example, I was glad when the Pau deal got struck down - many were not. On the other hand, I was all for gambling on Bynum - which is lookin like it woulda been a loser...
     
  14. Clutch

    Clutch Administrator
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    I didn't really mean for this to be a tanking thread, but I blame myself for using the word. Some replies to this...

    I agree with you it was a hybrid strategy, but only because the Rockets basically did the work of a tanking season in one offseason, and I tip my cap to Daryl for that. Think about it -- the Rockets completely gutted a three-year lottery team, selling off all the pieces to obtain a (likely) lottery pick and moved up to the minimum line in the draft to get the last of the lottery-caliber two guards, a player many felt could have gone top 8.

    Those two pieces got them to where they are today -- James Harden. They basically accumulated the rewards from two losing seasons in one lockout-shortened season.

    As for trades, I don't think I noticed many (if any) who didn't consider trading an option. I can't speak for others, but I can speak for myself and this was my stance on it before last season started.

    http://rockets.clutchfans.net/1901/for-rockets-winning-2012-would-be-nice-losing-might-be-better/

    I'm thrilled with where the Rockets are today -- young, flexible in their cap and likely still holding their pick if they miss the playoffs -- and I feel the same way about this season. Say the Rockets have the 7th or 8th pick in 2013, or even get lucky and win a top 3 pick. Those picks are crack for teams that are A) currently young B) wanting to rebuild or C) looking to move salary (like OKC). I don't like throwing names out there because you never know where a team will be then, but does Sacramento (DeMarcus Cousins) or Portland (LaMarcus Aldridge) re-evaluate this summer?

    I don't think the Rockets need to change anything on their current course... I just don't want them to make a short-term move to go "all-in" for making the playoffs. Play the young guys to develop them and let the chips falls where they may. If they make the playoffs now, great. I didn't (and still wouldn't) feel that way with Scola, Martin and Dalembert playing 35 minutes a night.

    You have to be willing to be patient and make good management decisions. If you're stuck in a losing culture, you don't lock yourself into as many bad contracts that you can find. They'll be hurting until 2014, but John Wall hasn't played for them yet this season. They may have a good foundation with a 22-year old Wall and a 19-year old Brad Beal.

    Couple of things on this:

    You know this, but the draft spots are important... 16 could be worthless compared to 14, if the Bucks have a specific player or two in mind. It may not be a matter of just adding a few nickels on top of the deal. Possible to make a deal, yes -- but you can't assume that Milwaukee is fine picking at 16... and there already was a second round pick, cash and the dumping of contracts in there in order to move down just two spots. There was a lot of sweetener already in there.

    Secondly, if the Rockets make the playoffs, someone else does NOT, and that someone is likely Utah. If Utah misses the playoffs, they keep their pick and select 14th (they also, like the Rockets, would likely target a guard, not a big). That means their pick (which ultimately was 18th) does not go to Minnesota. Outside of Rick Adelman, you're not likely to find anyone willing to give you the 18th pick for Chase Budinger.

    There goes two of your first rounders for making the playoffs over Utah.

    Exactly -- despite the Rockets' best and honest efforts to torpedo their future last year, they couldn't pull it off and managed to keep the assets that started a great foundation today. I couldn't agree more :)

    Yes, and I hope it stays that way this season.
     
  15. mr_gootan

    mr_gootan Member

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    So we're pro-choking now? Would you like my hands to be cold or warm?
     
  16. nono

    nono Member

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    So you think a team like Portland Trail Blazers would give up Aldridge for a package that included a 6th pick ? I don't think so. Aldridge is probably the best power forward in the league right now. You have a better understanding of the worth of draft picks than I do, but I just don't see why Portland would make that move. If it is a top 3 pick then they might do it, but I don't see us getting a top 3 pick. We will not be that bad. Furthermore, outside of the top 3, this draft is very poor in terms of talent. A 6th pick would in no way compensate for the loss of Aldridge.

    I think we are in a very good position, as you said. The best thing about this team is that we don't have any cancerous contracts and have cap space to add that number 1 option we still don't have. However, the problem is that the number 1 player we seek doesn't really seem available at the moment. The upcoming free agency doesn't have any franchise power forward. Sometimes I despair when I think about that. We will just have to wait and see. A lot depends on our current assets at PF developing into decent players that we can eventually use in trades.
     
  17. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

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    I think he was referring to an L Aldridge type of player just as an example of what you are in a position to be patient for rather than going to a stop gap right now. There are players that one might not even think of right now that could all the sudden come available. Could be John Wall too. Who knows.

    The thing about patience-

    The Rockets are in a position now where the longer they wait, in theory they should actually be in a better position in a year or two to make a move for a secondary star assuming that players like Jones, Patterson, Morris, D-Mo, etc. become valueable enough to give the Rockets the assets to trade for that player.

    Right now, if the Rockets made a move for a secondary star, more than likely Parsons, Asik, or both players would probably be moved. You move those two players right now for anyone short of a top 10 player, and you are taking a risk right there of losing two very important player in the Rockets rebuilding plans.

    I think the message here was patience, and staying the course. Continue to develop the players you got, and dont discard a player too soon(see Morris). I dont think the secondary star is available right now, but it could happen in the next year or so.

    Lets say they net a second star not this February but February 2014. Harden still will have 4 1/2 season with the Rockets after that, and the Lin/Asik contracts would be expiring that next season for major cap flexibility to build around those two players with solid veteran players or Moneyball role players like Chuck Hayes & Carl Landry. In that time, it is possible too that one or more of the Rockets young players develop into that secondary star the the Rockets desperately need. That would be the best case scenario of course.
     
  18. Clutch

    Clutch Administrator
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    Probably not, no ... but this is why I don't like to mention names. My point is teams that are comfortable with where they are now will shift directions. It happens all the time when teams disappoint or management/ownership has a new plan. In the case of Aldridge, he probably fits their plans at 27 years old, but he's a max salary guy now (also a terrific player, but I think the "best power forward in the league" should have at least one 9 rebound season on his resumé).

    I'd say Cousins has the potential to be the best power forward in the league as well, and it's also not likely the Kings would trade him... but he's also been a headache and will be eligible for an extension in a year.
     
  19. Clutch

    Clutch Administrator
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    Bingo... I think you nailed it. It's for this reason I hope the Rockets don't fall for the Jefferson/JSmoove solution at the trade deadline.

    I think you're right on Parsons/Asik -- both could be looked at as tremendous values and possibly get you in those discussions. I personally hope they don't move Asik, just because he's a rare player and I think pairing him alongside any top power forward you get would make for a great frontline. But if you're wanting to get in the game for a second star, there's probably no greater thing that can happen than Chandler Parsons taking off. The Rockets should be locked up in prison for signing him to that bargain contract.
     
  20. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Member

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    We can't wait, Clutch. We only have Harden for 6 more years under contract, which means 4 years before he begins to demand a trade to NY, LA or Miami. And there is a 50% chance his body breaks down within the next year or two.

    The Rockets thought they had a substantial window with Yao and McGrady in 2004, too.
     

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