ClutchFans Game Thread: Thunder @ Rockets 11/6/2009

Nope, I realize that context of turnovers is everything, and I realize they are young and learning and playing at a much faster pace, which will result in some turnovers.

And as long as they win, I don't care.

DD

 

The way I see it, Lowry is better at playmaking/passing, running the offense, defending, rebounding, finishing around the basket with and w/out contact, drawing fouls/getting to the line, and decision-making, in general. He also seems to be much more vocal and more of a natural leader.

Brooks is a better 3pt shooter. That is all.

I'm not sure he's even a better mid-range shooter.

I like Brooks but I honestly don't understand how he's starting over Lowry, who possesses far more tools and is far more consistent in terms of overall productivity because of all those things he does well. Brooks seems like he should be in a Jason Terry/Nate Robinson kind of role and there is nothing wrong with that. Players like that can help you win games, too. Unlike Lowry, Brooks is generally ineffective when his shot isn't falling. Lowry produces in so many ways that he almost always has a net positive effect while on the court.

Maybe they are trying to up Brooks' trade value or maybe Adelman is just allowing Brooks to play himself out of the starting role since he was here first.

 

brooks is more potent on the offensive end. That is why he's starting. Please, he's going to have a couple of bad games but why do people turn on him so quick? He's only started for a season.

 

Lowry is alot like Yao in that if the fouls arent being called his effectiveness goes WAY down.

 

BrooksBall: I've always preferred Lowry, but w/o both Yao and McGrady I can understand the rationale behind Brooks over Lowry for more scoring. When McGrady comes back though, I hope Adelman gives Lowry a fair shot at starting if he's outplaying Brooks at that time.

 

err, so your implying that when kyle aren't driving to the basket ball and drawing fouls hes got no other trick to back it up???

kyle is a superior defender, that alone is worth playing time hes given. however he can also set up an offense really well, can distribute, create for his teammates, and takes more charges than any guard in the NBA apart from a derek fisher(whos probably the only guard I see that refs allows to handcheck all game long...)

its still a debate who should be starting, and I don't mind whoever at this point, but if Morey's trying to showcase Brooks with the sole purpose of driving up his trade value and then trading him............then its a huge waste of team development and all the resources we've committed to brooks..............

 

AB is definitely the starter. When has Lowry ever broken out and scored 20+ points in a game? AB is definitely more of scorer, better shooter, and playmaker, while Lowry is definitely more of a facilitator, rebounder, and generally better defensively. However, looking at this years stats and last years stats, AB has definitely improved in assists (+3 compared to last year), with an additional ~10 minutes of playing time compared to last year. It's not like AB has been a terrible facilitator so far this year.

Both players bring different attributes and it's really pointless to keep on continuing to have this debate on who is better or deserves the starting spot. We have a huge benefit of having 2 equally gifted PGs that bring different styles so there isn't a drop performance when our second unit comes out at the PG position. When Chris Paul, D. Williams, etc. go out of the game, those teams get significantly worse at the PG position, while the Roxs don't lose much of anything.

 

I like the duo, too. I just think their roles are currently backwards, even without our stars in the lineup. Lowry just brings too many things to the table to use the "Brooks is a better outside shooter" argument.

If Lowry ever gets around 35-38 mpg over the course of an entire season, I think you'll see about 15-17 ppg, 8-10 apg, 5-7 rpg with a strong TS% and top notch defense (perhaps the best in the league among PGs). Lowry could potentially even score more with his ability to get to the line.

I see Lowry as similar to Chris Paul in a lot of ways. Laugh if you want. They have similar physical builds/body types. Similar rebounding ability. Similar ability to finish with contact and sell contact (both are flopticians). I honestly believe that Lowry has the potential to be right up there with the best in the league in terms of playmaking. He has exceptional court vision/passing ability. They are both natural leaders that play with an edge. The biggest differences between the two right now are that Paul is a better shooter while Lowry is a better overall defender. I'd love to see Lowry get a start against Paul one day. I think the results would be interesting.

 

Wow! That's pretty strong praise. Kyle's gotten off to a strong start, but Chris Paul?

 

I don't really get this line

Lowry is playing 24mpg right now as it is.

So to 'stretch' his current production (which you're in love with) to 36mpg, you end up with:

11.2 ppg
6.4 apg
4.2 rpg
2.8 tpg
throw in 1.2spg to go along with that.

(shooting %s would be the same I guess? 39.4%fg, 30%3pt, 76.2%ft)

Now don't get me wrong, those would be good numbers - but I'm not convinced that's anywhere near a 'Chris Paul' type production?

I see Lowry as a little cannonball - he thunders his way into the defense and has good vision. His shot is a little shaky, he can overplay his hand, and he doesn't always tend to make the right call. Some plays he makes I think "WOW" - some plays you think "WHY"? Certainly a 'solid' PG, but I'm still not convinced he's a starter, let alone one of the best players in the league....

 

But Brooks is just more than the "better outside shooter", he isn't one dimensional. Obviously, Roxs see things in Brooks that deem him necessary to be the stater that you don't see. I think having a starting PG that can score and sufficiently run the floor are their priorities. I believe that Lowry's abilities are more suited for our second unit.

I don't think it's laughable, but Lowry just isn't as a potent offensive threat, nor do I see him developing as one. He definitely is physical and shares similar physical qualities with CP3, but as far as shooting and scoring, this is where they diverge (as you mentioned). CP3 shoots very well from the line, while Lowry is about average (slightly above even).

I still cringe remember Lowry playing against the Lakers in the playoffs last year. It really showed how one dimensional his offensive game was back then, i.e., barrel into the paint and hoping to get the foul. That sort of playing (where you get often get bailed out by the foul) doesn't work all the time. It's great Lowry has been shooting (and making) more midrange shots and even nailed a few 3's (as opposed to passing them up like in the past) but he has a long ways to go before he can be a complete threat.

 

I felt the same way, but I'm seeing great improvement from Lowry early this season. He really seems to have improved his timing - namely, when and how to attack the basket. Sometimes, it's just a matter of hesitating for a split second and waiting for a seam to appear in the defense, while other times it's deciding to be more aggressive when the opponents overplay the perimeter D. He just seems to have more control and looks to get even better with more experience.

That said, I also think Lowry is the perfect point guard for our second unit. The chemistry he has with the bench guys is impeccable; if I were Budinger and Landry, I'd be getting Lowry a big Christmas present because he's really making them look good out there.

Also, when Lowry comes off the bench, he's been great at dictating the tempo and pace on both ends of the court. This not only means pushing the ball and being aggressive or playing stifling defense on the opposing PG, but also sometimes slowing down just enough to let the offensive set play out. Again, it may be a difference of one or two seconds, but I believe it's making a dramatic impact on the flow of the game.

It's not just that our second unit is outscoring the other team's bench; we're literally taking over the game, and Lowry has been the major reason for it IMO.

 

Its all about matchups to be honest. Some nights Brooks can easily get past his man and completely destroy defenses, sometimes he cant. Sometimes Lowry just makes one amazing play after another, sometimes he doesnt get calls and can't do very much. Its a very balanced combination we have and you RARELY see both guys having an off night, so its easy to just close out the game with what works.

In my opinion, its more about who closes out the games rather than who starts.

 

and you can't say that to ... whom?

 

Many players.

A large portion of Lowry's game is his ability to get to the free throw line. He recklessly drives to the basket and ends up on the floor about 50% of the time. If there isnt a whistle its an almost guaranteed 5 on 4 fastbreak.

Yao has to be able to get the ball. If defenders are clawing and grabbing him, preventing him from establishing position, often times 20+ seconds of the shot clock will be wasted and someone has to make a bailout play which is usually a low percentage.

Other guys don't depend on it as much, like Brooks abd McGrady. They can still make plays with people grabbing on them.

 

are you serious? if one is not getting the fouls called he deserves, his effectiveness goes way down. that is true for everyone.

take those phantom calls away and don't grant them to the lebrons, kobes or wades, and see how effectively they operate. call a travel everytime you see one in lebron or kg's moves, and see how they fare.

yes, lowry's play relies quite a bit on the fouls he tries to draw. if refs don't give him that, then a big chunk of his game is taken away. i was just saying that is true to almost everyone in the league.

and brooks "can still make plays with people grabbing on" him? the truth can't be farther away from this. actually, the main reason ab's ceiling is a lot lower in my mind than on many others is his size and his build. anyone bumps him, he'd not know what to do. and he can't put too much muscles on his body, as that way he'd lose his speed. this is a built-in and generic weakness of ab, and i can't see him overcome it. as they say you can't teach size. remember the lakers game? think about it for a second, then you may want to retract your statement there.