ClutchFans Game Thread: Rockets @ Wizards 12/9/2006

You were right that I introduced that word into discussion replying to you, but you were the ONE who continuously bragging about how your objective analysis were needed for this "Post game analysis" instead of compliments of some great performacne. You also went on to claim that you didn't even try to compliment while I questioned whether your one-liner backhanded compliment qualified as analysis.

Once again, no matter how many times you repeat, how much satisfaction it gives you to claim objectivity, YOur opinion is still subjective, same as the ones from everyone else. It shouldn't stop you from looking at things from multiple angels.

But hey, if you are claiming objectivity, you need to be ready to be examed of your objective analysis. It really shouldn't surprise you at all.

No, you claimed it was analysis, and a perfect fit for this thread. Then you were asked how come you would ignore a much bigger factor that TMac got injured, who played great in that game in 2nd and 3rd quarter, whose absense proved to be most critical for game outcome, while discussing injury. Is that an invalid question, or just a little bit tough for you to answer?

You are welcome.

 

Just because Yao was defended by 3rd- and 4th-string centers from an opposing team doesn't mean Yao should be expected to receive every entry pass with ease from his teammates, and automatically make half-a-dozen highly contested turnaround/fadeaway mid-range jumper without a miss in a 4th quarter to carry his team to a victory on the road and in a arena, where the home team had enjoyed 7-2 win-loss success.

Although durvasa more or less clarified his opinion (whether on his own volition is debatable) in his later posts, the one-liner he threw out in his opening post in this thread can hardly be characterized as insightful and thus be called "analysis." People usually couldn't care less about a casual statement in a post-game thread, but when the stats guy who made an almost worthless comment himself started to dismiss other posters' opinions as masturbation over Yao and then pompously reminded us this an "Analysis" thread, he is naturally subject to all kinds of scrutinies and ridicules.

I haven't see anyone call somebody YOH in this thread, so I don't know why you should feel the need to be insecure about yourself and the stats guy.

For a guy who stormed the CF.net with bouts of stats and figures when he joined the site and subsequently made a name for himself in this regard, he certainly hasn't offered any ground-breaking discoveries that are unbeknownst to others. Moreover, unlike R2K who has persistently and diligently provided genuine service to this community game after game, the stats guy's recent posts in various threads have been reduced to defensive and mostly nonsensical quibbles. There are no lack of posters on this board who are well versed in statistics, know a thing or two about basketball, and follow the game closely (Tango and MFW, just to name a couple), and who don't casually throw out smartass one-liners in situations where objective and in-depth discussions are expected. To them, winning mindless drivels is not their goal.

 

this whole nonsense is so totally retentive. good gawd!!

but what a job of coaching eh?

well I guess it keeps you guys out of trouble.........................................

go rockets!

 

This is a lie.

Edit:

This is in reference to this comment, I think. Not a lie (and I apologize for the accusation), just a misunderstanding:

The purpose of this thread is to discuss our thoughts on the game, period. If people want to express happiness or congratulations, fine. If people want to additionally point out specific events that happened in the game they feel were significant, that should be ok too. And if people want to elaborate in depth (like Kim) that's even better. That's all I meant by the above statement.

I didn't claim objectivity. Striving for objectivity and being objective are two different things.

Next.

I didn't claim it was an exhaustive analysis (which you're implying I meant). I said it was an observation that was worth making in a thread with "Analysis" in the title.

Are we done?

 

Whoa. How did this degenerate into a flamewar?

I think some of you guys need to take a 1000mg chill pill. Everyone has opinions, and I don't see why you guys should be berating durvasa for his just because he's a stats guy. Betrays some underlying resentment there. Everyone's free to disagree with whatever, and in the end we should agree to disagree. I for one highly value durvasa's contributions to this board since he joined...even if his stats aren't telling me what I'd like to hear. So what if Yao was playing against 3rd and 4th string centers? He's still far and away the best center in the NBA. The fact that he was playing against those guys probably made his job a lot easier in the 4th -- there's no denying that; Yao himself even acknowledged it publicly by saying that Thomas and Haywood usually do a good job of denying him post position. Big whoop. Certainly not worth this meaningless squabble that has all of a sudden turned into personal attacks and attempts to denigrate other people's reputation on the BBS.

Seriously...wth?

 

I didn't respond to a single damn thing you or anyone else said until my post was critiqued and I was ridiculed multiple times.

I didn't dismiss the opinion that Yao played great. I dismissed the attitude that I (or anyone else) shouldn't make a post that isn't 100% congratulatory in spirit. These post-games threads aren't simply meant as pep rallies for the team. Am I not allowed to post freely my thoughts on the game without jerks like you ridiculing me and dismissing me as the "stats guy".

I'm defensive ... not you, who decide to nitpick and ridicule any comment I make you incorrectly consider as a purposeful slight on Yao? And when I decide (perhaps foolishly) to respond to all your nitpicks and try to clarify your repeated mischaracterizations, I'm the one who's sputtering nonsense?

 

Not sure which thread you were reading. Did you see any ONE single poster denying the fact that Yao was facing 3rd/4th string center in the 4th quarter? However, to contribute Yao's performance to that match up only, certinaly neglects the disadvantagous factor that TMac is injured as well, so that the Wizard threw all their defense into Yao, which they couldn't do in the first 3 quarters. I would assume that's very shaky logic and wrong analysis.

TMac is probably not going to repeat that 13 points in 35 seconds super performance again in his career. It's truth, but I wouldn't be too comfortable to see that kind of one liner in a post game analysis thread, to say "yeah, it's all good, but don't forget, he can't repeat that again." It's still truth but not analysis, and it's a jab. Similarily, it's truth that Yao is 7'6, but after a performance of 22/20 against Ben Wallace, I wouldn't be too comfortable to see "yeah, it's nice, but hey he's 7'6, he's supposed to do that." It's again truth, and it's again no analysis, but a jab.

One liner personal opinions are thrown out a lot, and it will be commented on as well. However, to go on to claim how it fits well with "post game ANALYSIS", and go further with all the selected stats to support the conclusion, one should expect an in depth debate of the event at least. But no, it becomes "personal attacks and attempts to denigrate other people's reputation on the BBS." Wow, just wow.

 

i think Luke walton will goes off if we dont pay attention to him. this guy has the highest 3pt % in the leagua, and kobe has shown us he can pass too.

 

Anybody know the wooki link for this?

Thanks in advance

 

I wasn't defending everything durvasa said and thought I made it was clear I didn't read the entire thread. Also, please don't lump me in with him. Though not lately, durvasa and I have disagreed mightily about stats and debated their meaning. I didn't mean to defend him at all; he's grown up and can do fine on his own.

pryuen is the one who mentioned the "YOH" term, which fortunately is now almost dead and in the grave.

Yao is the only center in the NBA that could have abused the Wizards that severely. He is the best center in the NBA. That doesn't negate the fact the Wizards are a poor defensive team and Lang and Booth are so pathetic they had only played 40 minutes between them the entire season before Saturday. What Yao did was great but it's not a stretch to say the 4th quarter on Saturday won't be his top highlight this season. He will do better, on his way to being an MVP candidate for the first time.

 

This thread allows for analysis. That doesn't mean every post has to be a full-length, exhaustive analysis. We aren't submitting papers to an academic journal here. It's an informal sharing of ideas. What it means is that truthful statements should be allowed, even if it makes you uncomfortable and you consider it a "jab" because it's not fully congratulatory.

An in depth debate of the event is fine. That's what threads like this are for ("post-game analysis").

But you go on to say that I should not have made the initial post and you characterize it as a "backhanded compliment". As if every post in this thread must be a term paper unto itself. That's a nonsensical standard.

wnes has done all these things in this thread and prior threads.

 

Although my initial post (as a reply to real_egal) in this thread made it sound like I was more interested in singing Yao praise blindly than engaging in game analysis objectively, it was never my intention to be that way. I regret the sarcastic tone and wrong impression it created in the first place. Yes you are exactly right in one regard, that this is meant to be a game analysis thread. Frankly I don't care if I see Yao praise or not in threads like this. That's why you don't see me echo any more real_egal's posts where he opined on what he perceived as backhanded compliment. That said, however, I personally found the "masturbation over Yao" expression extremely distasteful and objectional. I don't think any self-claimed "Yao Ming admirer" would hurl such insult at their fellow Yao fans at the expense of Yao.

To me, the most straightforward and candid analysis of this game is Yao got hot at the right time (or quarter), with the help of extended break and refs' tight whistles on fouls committed against Yao. In a way, I could just say Yao got freakishly lucky with his outside shots, so much so he became virtually unstoppable, regardless of kind of defense thrown at him. Of course, the discussion and analyses can be and should be extended to include other important factors, which I am not going to repeat here. I certainly acknowledged your subsequent clarifications (forced or willing is another matter) to your initial post. I don't think I can be any more objective on that.

Maybe I need to act more "diplomatically" as you did in your congratualtion to Yao's first POM award, instead of calling a spade a spade?

 

Good. Because mindless cheerleading and stifling discussion is a distasteful and objectional thing.

 

sorry , too mad to put it in wrong thread.