ClutchFans Game Thread: Rockets @ Wizards 12/9/2006

Good pooint about the quality of center, but

It should also be pointed out that
1)Yao was scoring pretty effciently through the first 3 qtrs when he shot.
2)The main reason for his increased shot attempts in the 4th was TMac's injury.
3)Lange sucked, but Booth actually did a decent job on Yao. His last hook shot, for instance, was well defended. I don't know if Haywood or Thomas could have guarded him much better than that. His shots were just falling tonight.

 

dont reply to haters who pretend to be impartial at this time.
Just check all his older posts.

 

I've read many of them and durvasa is not a hater.

 

Yao played well throughout the game, sure, but he went 6/6 from the field in the 4th quarter! Considering that this was a back to back game, and Yao has a tended to fade considerably in the fourth quarter, I think other factors are probably at play.

The key to defending Yao effectively isn't simply to contest his shots. I think that's only a minor part of it. You have to make it difficult for him to get catches, you have to prevent him from posting close to the basket (within 8-10 feet), and you can't foul him. Washington failed miserably in those areas in the fourth quarter. I don't think Lange or Booth had played more than 30 minutes the whole season, so that shouldn't be surprising.

 

Your *analyses* are contradictory and hardly unbiased.

The Wizards didn't really contain Yao even with their two best centers guarding him alternately. Yao's relatively low scoring production through the 3 quarters are the combination of TMac taking most of the shots, Yao devoting himself more on the defensive end, and Yao getting his teammates more involved in the offense.

Your current argument is based on a false premise that the Wizards were freely letting Yao scoring them at will by intentionally sending their 3rd and 4rd [sic] string centers on him in the 4th quarter. Any impartial observer who has watched the game would testify Yao has everything to with the fact that the Wizards couldn't send their two best defensive centers in the 4th quarter.

On the other hand, your own researched fact showed even with their #1 and #2 centers playing most of the minutes, Washington's defense hardly matters against most of the teams in the league, let alone an offensively dominant player, such as Yao, who had hot hands.

As far as offense goes, at least their 4rd [sic] string center can at least score a three late in the game to make it a little more dramatic and interesting.

 

A truly remarkable performance in the fourth game in five days against an explosive offensive team (at least when they are in their own gym). Gilbert Arenas was unconcious, and yet we come up with the win.

TMAC posting up with a spread floor looked like the second post up option we have really needed on this team since Battier is only doing it twice a night (one righthand spin, one left hand). TMAC looked fantastic, the best he has all year. Luther and Juwan are both performing better than expected off the bench.

The fouling underneath the basket by others on YAO has always been frustrating, but in the last few games it has even been more ridiculous. That's why JVG said what he did. He let the league and the officials know exactly what he thinks of they way they call YAO.

Just daydream for a minute about what if YAO got Shaq type calls. He would be at the line 20 times a game and could run over people and not get calls. Oh well, it is what it is, but his dominance in this game was really special. He is the Rocket's thoroughbred finally saying this season, "Come ride me!" He is morphing into an absolutely incredible weapon that teams cannot stop. Even considering Minnesota's incredible defense the other night, he is not only continuing last season's late brilliance, he is improving upon it.

In thinking about big picture stuff regarding the Rockets, I am really glad to see our ability to win either a high scoring affair like the Wizards or grind it out defensive wins. This team is really just discovering their potential. The future looks bright as long as we can keep TMAC and YAO healthy. Go ROX!

Bonzi who?

 

well said.
Their two best centers are hurt with reasons --- because they tried their best to defend Yao and Yao weared them out

 

You think Yao could have scored 23 points in a previous quarter if he wanted, but just decided not to in deference to his teammates and to assert himself on the defensive end?

Interesting theory. I don't buy it, but it doesn't make a difference to my argument. Yao has shown throughout this season he's capable of putting up big numbers in the early quarters when he's fresh. But could he have scored 23 points against Thomas/Haywood in the fourth quarter? It's unlikely. If you think otherwise, fine. I really don't care.

Haywood and Thomas were both injured. Assuming Yao and the Rockets did not purposely injure them, their injuries were not a product of our gameplan and we were fortunate that they were unavailable.

As JVG said:

Their defense is bad with their two centers, both of whom are actually good defensively. So without them, their defense can be expected to be downright atrocious. Well, we scored 34 points against them without our best playmaker on the floor, in a quarter in which we've struggled offensively all year. How about you put 2 and 2 together, instead of me having to walk you through it?

 

Yao can put up load of points in short spurts if he is fresh. True that.
Have you considered there was like 15 minutes break before 4th quarter started? Could Yao be real fresh in the 4th? Have you considered Yao wasnt doing his thing in the previous 3 quarters ( You may argue that's because of Wiz's 1st and 2nd string centers denying him), but intentionally or not, that could save his energy for the 4th.
Yao was playing out of his minds in the 4th scoring 23 points, it was a different Yao from Minny's game. Have you considered Yao might jus evolved a little?
I get tough love and all, but I dont get nitpick on our center after he carried us to a win and showed some guts. Can we be a little positive.

 

we are one game away from #1, even without a consistent T-mac. We should be happy than anyone. I don't know why always there are a few craps want to spoil our party. May we have sometime to enjoy before the tough schedule please?

 

Did the break before the 4th quarter help? Probably. But that would be another factor outside of our control that we lucked out on. The Rockets aren't going to get a 15 minute break before every 4th quarter. That helps Yao more than anyone.

Do I think Yao was conserving his energy for the 4th? No, I don't. I don't know of any evidence that he's ever done that, and in fact the Rockets usually make it a point to try to get him going early in games.

Yao has showed slow, steady progress throughout his career. No, I don't seriously consider the possibility that he evolved into a great 4th quarter player in one game. I see multiple external circumstances (we were playing a bad defensive team , they just lost their two best defensive bigs, there was a 15 minute break before the 4th) that he happened to take advantage of, to his credit. I don't think he's suddenly going to be a great 4th quarter player from now on based on this game, if that's what you're asking.

I'm not nitpicking Yao. Yao stepped up, and we (including he) were helped by external circumstances outside of our control. I think that's an accurate and realistic take on what happened.

 

All the stats you brought up are ligit, and you are knowledgable in basketball and have been following the Rockets quite long, but in my humble opinion, you got to drop "I am more superior than you are, as a REAL basketball fan" chip. Fans are emotional, and exactly that makes us a very good home court team this year. It was an emotional game and very difficult game, 4th game in fifth night, on the road, and the Wizards were on a 3-game winning streak. On top of that, Arenas made 7 3 pointers and their 4th string despite a 1-7 from free throw line, dropped in a 3 pointer in crucial time. We got a TMac almost played as 80% of himself, in a very efficient game, left the game with BACK SPASM again.

Yao was very efficient in the first quarter, when their 1st and 2nd string centers were defending him. Their injury was their loss, and it's the advantage for Rockets to take. It's hard enough for Yao to pick it up on the spot, where he drawed double teams, yielded to TMac offensively, but contributed greatly at the defensive end by delivering 5 blocks in 3 quarters and literaly shutting down the paint. TMac's injury was a blow to the team, and you got Yao delivered when he's most needed. That's leadership and clutch, although against their migits. You don't have to sing praise to him, but you don't have to deliver your "OBJECTIVE ANALYSIS" where simple-minded fans were just happy for their team to pull this together. Without those blatant calls in favor of Lakers during the game against Trailblazers and Kings, Shaq and Kobe might not have got that 3 rings. Without refs kissing Wade's a$$, Shaq wouldn't get his fourth ring either. I don't see those players and fans were less happy.

Stats itself is objective, but interpretation is always SUBJECTIVE. In fourth quarter, where Yao was 6/6 and just missed one freethrow, as you mentioned. Instead of giving him credit and happy for the TEAM you are a LOYAL fan with for such a long time, you felt the urge to cool everybody down, and point out it's nothing because it was facing 3rd or 4th string centers. Please help me refresh my memory, so far, I haven't seen any of your posts pointing out any player, either from the Rockets, or any other team, or in the history, that some good games they played were against 3rd string players in that position, due to different reasons. But I am sure every player has that experience before - playing well against reserves. If you do that to every player, you will be busy 24x7.

It's a free country and a free board, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But you need to be ready for others' opinions as well, not just those regarding certain stats, games, and players, but also your objectivity.

Speaking of 4th quarter fading, it's not Yao's option but rather game plan directed. If Yao can afford to coast through the first 3 quarters, he will come up big on the end. Nobody has shown consistant excellence in all 4 quarters, nor did Wade - the Mr. 4th quarter. The game plan of Rockets were always to set up Yao first, and let TMac to close out games. Most of role palyers fail to deliver in 4th quarter due to mental weakness, but the fact Yao can make clutch shots and freethrows in crunch time, means his lacking of output in late games were simply caused by energy. He only has that much of energy, although he has been working on that continuously, and improved steadily. I don't think your OBJECTIVITY will help that. Remember, the game between Rockets and Magic, the way Yao closed the game, was what started the mutual respect between Yao and TMac.

Yao is not at the level of those all time greats yet. But he never stops working towards that, and that's what I admire him about, no matter whether he can reach that level one day or not. At a night, when fans were happy about the win and Yao's performance, but worried about TMac's status, whether Yao played against 3rd or 4th string centers of Washington is the least Rockets would be interested. To imply it's nothing to happy about, I don't think it's a problem of those happy fans, but rather some so-called objective, knowledgable, and REAL "fan". English is not my mother tongue, but I think you successfully delivered your opinion through you consistent tone, after a win or loss, good or bad performance. Maybe you can start a dedicated thread of Yao's shortcoming, and always update it with new findings after each game. I do think it's helpful for Yao Ming, but I don't think it's a good idea to drop the same message in every thread, especially those happy threads. Just my 2 cents.

 

Open up a "let's celebrate our awesomeness" thread, if you like. This thread is called "Post-game Analysis" for a reason.

 

man you know your problem? you behave like the JVG for fans. for years we
have cursed that nitpicking all-negative SOB.

 

LOL....you summed up what real_egal was trying to say in a few sentences. But you know what, durvasa, like JVG wants what's best for this team and we all know it's winning a championship.

 

You open a " Yao's shortcoming " please, becasue most of us are happy about Yao's performance, only you and a few craps find some Yao's bad performance repeatly after he had 38, 11 and 6 night. Dare you do it? You will be fryed!

 

I don't get why some people are saying 38/11/6 are not a great game, or how 23 points isn't a great quarter, especially when it comes within the flow of the offense, with your option 1B being out with injury.

Forget 23 in a quarter, if this is a 23 point game for any other 5 not named Shaq, he'd be getting the "good game" slap in the back.

And durvasa, dude, you got to drop the silly event study stats. Like I told you, event study is dead, and for good reasons.

Yao had inflated stats in the 4th because he played against 3rd/4th string? I could just as well say that Yao had an even more amazing quarter in the 4th because when TMac went out, the Wizards focused their entire defense on him. He seal, packed and delivered.

For the record, I don't think Yao can score 23 points in the 4th quarter with consistency, against good inside teams. I don't even think he can do that with Lang and Booth again. But on the other hand, I don't see anybody here trying to draw statistical inferences from this one game, other than you.

Yao had a great game, period.

 

I am not sure whether you are talking about the JVG - the coach, who is loved and respected by his players, strict but caring to his players in private, and protect his players in public, or the JVG perceived by some fans - who's just all about negativity.

JVG is certainly a no-nonsense straight talker, but I haven't seen him nitpicking after exciting wins. On the contrary, he's one of the most vocal protector of Yao Ming, who challenges all the bias towards our big man.

I wouldn't call a fan to other fans, the same as what such a dedicated coach is to this team.

 

If you're going to accuse me of having that attitude, you need to show where I ever insulted someone else for having a different opinion or different perspective. Just point out one post where I did this.

If my tone ever sounds insulting, it's generally because I'm responding to someone who is insulting me for offering a perspective they disagree with (e.g. wnes).

Which is what I said:

In a thread called "post-game analysis", there is nothing wrong in trying to be objective.

I didn't say "it's nothing". I said he stepped up.

I (and many others here) have referenced "adjusted +/-" stats as an ideal performance metric several times. In theory, they would take into account the opposing players on the court.

Alright. And I think people who voice the opinion that objectivity should be shunned are doing a huge disservice to this message board. I think the owner of this site would agree.

I don't see the point you're making here. We agree that Yao has stamina issues which usually make it difficult for him to play well in the fourth quarter. Beyond that, I think defenses usually play Yao more aggressively in the fourth quarter, so there's really a combination at work there.

Against Washington, I think Yao looked tired (or played tired) on the defensive end in the fourth quarter. But he stepped up and played through that fatigue on the offensive end. Further, we were helped by Washington's lackluster defense and weak double teams.

I'm not going to create a thread just to talk about Yao's shortcomings. The purpose of this thread was to discuss the game, not celebrate the Rockets victory. I'm glad we won, and I'm especially glad we won with Yao scoring 23 points in the fourth quarter, but I'll point out whichever factors I think are relevant to the final result. If this thread is mostly going to be about Yao's performance late in the game, it's worth looking at what led to that performance.

Suppose Yao and Mutombo both were injured and couldn't play the fourth quarter in a game against Miami. And let's say Shaq dominates in the fourth and scores 23 points. If all the papers the next day, in their "analysis" of the game, celebrate Shaq's dominating game while failing to point out that our first and second option at center weren't playing in the fourth ... do you think that's a fair, accurate assessment?

 

Your analysis is true but do bear in mind that there are a lot of uncertainties on the NBA court. When you implied "we were lucky as Yao was facing their 3rd/4th string centers, cause Thomas did a decent job against Yao...", why not went ahead and pointed out that the guy wearing 0 hit 7 3s and got a season high? So what if his shoots cooled a little just like Yao might not go 6/6 against Thomas? So what if the 1th string Thomas could not come up with a huge 3 that Booth hit? So what if TMac were not injuried? Your interpretation sounds like we won only because we were lucky, so the Wizards were not lucky when Tmac went out, when Ref neglected so many fouls against Yao from the so-called 1st string centers in the first 3 quarters? Such assumption (or your analysis) is biased.

And you live and die with your luck in every NBA game with the injuries, foul troubles, etc. Fact is that Rockets is not gonna dominate and win WITHOUT ANY ARGUMENT every game, but yesterday the team played with a lot of effort and it was a great win.

Furthermore, I believe EVERYBODY knows that Yao was playing well rested/against the 3rd or 4th string center, and your analysis didn't bring too much value other than the depressing "if Yao was against Thomas and was not rested for extra time we were probably in trouble" mentality.