ClutchFans Game Thread: Rockets @ Pacers 10/10/2013 in Manila, Philippines (PRESEASON)

What's the difference between Harden coming off the bench playing 35+ minute and being a starter playing 35+ minute? Can you answer that?

Does it matter if there is a SG on the bench pushing Harden for playing time? His playing time will remain the same. So why isn't it a legit argument to have Lin and Howard take on the offensive load for the first 7 minute or so in the 1st and 3rd qtr?

You are not debating the main point. You are going off topic with "role" player and "superstar". Therefore it proves my point that JLin is technically being demoted status wise coming off the bench which a lot of people are arguing otherwise.

 

I think the key question that not many people here have considered, is that:

- If Lin makes Howard better more so than Beverley
- If Lin makes the second unit better more so than Beverley
- If when Lin plays the offense runs through Howard more and there's a great balance between Harden getting his and Howard getting his
- If Lin is already an above average PG defender, and we have Howard/Asik protecting the rim for 48 minutes, and for maybe 10 of those minutes you have both protecting the rim
- If Lin's 3pt shot is on par with Beverley's and he's a bigger offensive threat that opposing teams have to game plan for on both drives, isos, PnRs and shooting
- If Harden has improved his defense and Parsons will become an even more two-way player this season

Then why shouldn't we play Lin 35 minutes per game (or as many minutes as his long-term health allows)? Because Lin does everything equal or better than Beverley, except defense, and Lin's defense is already above average for a PG (and improved it appears this offseason), and overall team defense is already covered by Dwight/Asik and SG/SF improvements?


Wahaha ... gonna get called a LOF again, even though trying to start a rational discussion

I mean Beverley's biggest strength is already covered by our big man, and our SG/SF improving their defense

 

Find me a team, literally 1 team, in both NBA and college, and hell...even on your high school teams, where the best player comes of the bench.

Harden's the best player, and when you're the best player, you earn the right to start the game. It's just how basketball works. Not much more that needs to be said.

 

How is it a demotion if his minutes and pay don't change. He's being asked to help the team in a role that will probably give him more ball control and freedom to show his talents. I just don't see anything that is describing a demotion.

 

So you're expecting Harden to 17 minutes straight in the 1/2 quarters and 3/4 quarters? Because that's what would need to happen if he's to play 35 mpg. Not a good way to plan out your rotation.

 

2Pat, MMorris, TRob, TJones, DMo, Lowry, Brooks, Dragic, Asik ... explain how they didn't fight for starter status and didn't feel demoted when they became the backup and didn't want to be traded (in the case of Lowry, Asik) or didn't want to go somewhere else for a chance to be a starter.

That's the basketball reason you're trying to change into something else.

Just explain how it's ok for these cases to be a demotion but not for Lin.

If it applies to Lin, it applies to everyone (or at least the majority), not just Manu and McHale.

Just explain this

 

If you don't see the irony in both your post. Then I don't know what else I can say that can prove my point. On one hand you claim Harden shouldn't be on the bench because he's the best. But on the other hand you claim that as long as you get the same minute and role, it shouldn't matter if you start from the bench or starters.

 

Why does Patrick Beverley keep doing this to us!

 

Best Player = starter

3rd to 5th best player = 6th man

 

No that's not my point. This is irrelevant to what I am implying.

 

Harden played 31.4 min as a reserve, surely there's a mathematical way to squeeze out 1.8 minutes per half, in terms of planning your rotation in a similar way.

I'm sure Harden didn't play 15.7 minutes straight at OKC in the 1/2 quarters and 3/4 quarters ...

You of all people ... I was impressed with your statistical analysis before

 

So there's three 6th man? Parsons, Lin and Asik, off to the bench.

 

Pushing a superstar to the bench is a demotion.

Putting a role player into a different role to better utilize what talents he has and how they fit the team is not a demotion.

 

You're asking why we can't just have Harden come off the bench, right? If that's what you want, and the goal is to keep his minutes at 35+ per game, how will you manage that? It would require him playing the entirety of the 2nd and 4th quarters, plus latter half of the 1st and 3rd quarters. That's a poorly designed rotation. The best offensive player and primary shot creator should get rest in the middle of each half, so that he's fresh at the end when its potentially a close game.

 

What's the difference between what you said and what I will type below.

"Putting a superstar into a different role to better utilize what talents he has and how the team fits is not a demotion."

 

No I'm using Harden coming off the bench as a counter example to the argument that "Lin coming off the bench is not a demotion". This has nothing to do with Harden. It's just a more extreme example to prove a point.

 

Im sitting here confused why there's back and forth going on.
So I go to check the stats again on NBA.com and lolwut?. I swear they are showing the opposite of what I saw.

Earlier, right after the game I even said how great it was to see Howard beasting on Hibbert, but it says he went 4/11 lol
Also couldve sworn Pacers easily passed 20 TOs but they only had 15?
My ass must've still been half-asleep

From what I remember they didnt run the pickNroll with Harden and Howard much, if at all today right?

 

BECAUSE YOUR BEST PLAYERS START

 

Because as durvasa has been trying to point out, there isn't a realistic way to have a guy come off the bench ad still get the 35+ minutes he deserves as a superstar. Unless he is coming in to the game 2-3 minutes into each half you can't get the minutes and rest to work, so he would be losing minutes which is a demotion.

Lin is a role player who will be getting his 30 or so minutes either way and like I said before getting more control of the ball in moving to a different role.

 

Since we are on to extreme examples.

Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Dwight Howard and James Harden are on the same team.

Coach decides to have Harden come off the bench playing 30+ minutes.

Is it a demotion? Or do you see some strategic advantages to having one of your best players play with the 2nd unit?