ClutchFans Game Thread: Rockets @ Celtics 1/31/2005

I'm not suggesting that's the reason why JJ got traded. Merely wanted to point out that concern for job security does not always shape and drive the behavior of these journeymen like we'd expect it to. So your proffered reason for exonerating Sura does not necessarily hold water any more than the Sura conspiracy theories.

 

Im lookin at the tape right now....


he sits at 6:03 when Pierce drives into Yao....on this one Yao leaves his feet and is inside the circle....sure fire recipe for a foul...

Im checking thru play by play inthe first 6 minutes...Ill be back with a better breakdown in a few

 

Thanks R2K, you never fail to come through

 

That is true, I was just staying my reasons for thinking these accusations are baseless/tacky at this point and time. I guess the better way of putting it is "Innocent until proven guilty."

 

it seems like Jon Barry is made for Yao, and Sura is made for Tmac so why don't we try this:
sura
jb
t-mac
howard
yao

sura and T-mac could be on one side of the court and J.B and Yao could be on the other side of the court. Then you can swing the ball from sura to j.b to yao, or from yao to j.b to sura, to t-mac. it will confuse the other team defense because of the ball movement and yao and t-mac wouldn't get much fronting. Also this setup will limit t-mac from taking lotss of 3's and give the fans some driving dunks .

opinions???

 

True. Very true. I see grit and an ability to come back, which just was not there in the Francis/Mobley era. I think even the most ardent fans of the old backcourt would have to admit that. Basketball IQ is up, and 4th quarter results are up. I'm really starting to like it. With Francis and Mobley, I was always waiting for the wheels to come off during a lead, or if we were down, well, basically, that was it.

Though the recycling of Knicks is certainly annoying, we seem to have come full circle and now resemble the old Rudy T rockets, with a couple of stars, vets looking for their second chance, and absolute unknowns. I like how where we're at, especially since that disgusting 6-11 start.

 

I can't speak for others, but I NEVER, NEVER said Sura INTENTIONALLY freeze out Yao. All I've been saying is Sura seems to be incapable of making good passes to Yao to the point that both of them rarely look for each other anymore. It might be that Sura is simpily a shooting guard trying to fulfill the role of a point guard, even though his jump-shooting ability is shaky at best, or this is simpily what JVG wanted him to do in these offensive schemes of his afterall. It's no coincidence that Yao tends to get more touches with Barry and Padgett in there, even their efforts in trying to get the ball to Yao seem much more obvious.

You can label me a YOF if you want and I don't give a damn. What annoyed me more than anything else here is the arrogance exhibited by some of the more senior members here. Many of them think only they know basketball, only they know the ball is round rather than square. Believe or not, some of us, me included do play basketball on a regular basis.

 

I want to make it clear that I was not pointing out specific people. It was a statement to the idea in general, that's it. I'm also not going to sit here and debate the merits of who knows basketball the best because there is no reason to do so. Furthermore, you gave me a logical reason for your assertion that Sura struggles to get Yao the ball. That is entirely different than screaming conspiracy.

I can't say this with 100% certainty, but if you presented an argument that Sura struggles to feed Yao in the low post with actual plays referenced, people here would respect that and listen. But if you say it in the way that some here have: ie, Sura is freezing out Yao on purpose, expect to be flamed and criticized, unless the individual making the claim has factual evidence backing it up. And it doesn't help matters that these conspiracy theories run rampant even after wins. Most here want to celebrate wins, and instead the conspiracy theory takes over and gets really petty, grating on many people's nerves.

 

Thanks Rockets2K. Just woke up from a nice nap too.

Great....and while you do that, I'm gonna go back to sleep.


where would this forum be without R2k?

 

I try not to....just like you never fail to give us kickass graphics....


3rd Quarter breakdown while Yao is in: (Rockets plays only)



11:38 --- Tmac brings it up......Tmac tied up by Allen before the play ever develops...judging from the angle...Tmac was going to Yao since he was setting up at the middle side of the paint

11:23 --- Sura steal...fast break....passes to Wesley...Allen recovers to foul Wesley...Wesley makes both Fts

11:00 --- Sura brings it up after made basket......Yao sets multiple picks to free up Tmac on the left side arc ......he promptly posts middle side of the paint(Blount behind him)...turns baseline...goes for the shot..everyone converges....LeFrenz blocks it(kinda)....Howard knocks it out fighting for the loose ball...

10:30 --- Sura brings it up left side....Yao up high setting pick for Wesley to curl to the basket...sets another high pick for Sura heading right....play is on the other side...Yao just hangs weakside watching left of the paint...starts to try to get position middle of the paint at 10:16...is pushed back out....so they go to Howard on the right side block...Yao also stands to watch on the weakside....Howard misses

9:50 --- Sura brings it up.....Yao sets pick left high post for Tmac...Tmac goes away from the pick towards baseline ....Yao syands at the high post onthe same side watching Tmac work....Tmc gets cut off and passes crosscourt to Wesley at the 3 line (around 5 feet up from baseline)...Wesley misses...BOS rebound

9:18 --- Sura at the left 3 line..Yao in the paint setting pick to get Tmac free at the FT line...Play was intended for Tmac to popout at the key for the shot...defense recovers....Tmc goes to second option....pass to Yao inthe center of the paint....Yao can not get position..pushed out and a double....Howard comes over to set a pick for Tmac so he can go right side...Tmac shoots...misses...Sura rebounds, runs to the leftside 3 line.......at this point...he could have tossed it to Yao who was attempting to get postion just outside the paint onthe left side...but Blount was pushign hard on Yao...Yao was bent tryin to push back...but at this point...the pass woudl have been risky.....(if you want to question my estimation..Ill clip it to prove it)....so Howard comes over and sets a high pick to free Sura heade weakside....Celts attmpt to double Sura on the pick...he splits the defenders headed into the paint...passes to Wesley inthe same spot as last play when the defense converges to cut off the drive....Wesley nails the 3

8:33 --- BOS miss...Yao rebounds and gives it to Wesley, who brings it up right side....Yaogoes to the middle of the key and stops and watches as Wesley gives to Tmac...Tmac passes to Yao, who has comes out middle outside the 3 line....Yao passes to Sura who is at the weakside elbow...then comes over to set a pick...BOS doubles Sura...Sura attempts to split the D while Yao soft rolls weakside toward the baseline.....judging by the direction of the play and Yao's actions...this play is not intended for him...as he doesnt try at all to get position after the pick...Allen knocks it out as Sura is attempting to pass to Tmac on the right side 3line


8:20 --- Sura inbounds.....Yao sets right side high post pick to free up Tmac into the paint(intended play on inbounds...easy Tmac layup if successful)...defense covers...passes to Howard right side 3line... Yao goes out to eh same area, but higher up on the arc...Howard passes up real high (near the 8sec line) to Wesley...Yaosets high pick...Wesley drives into the key...loses ball....shotclock winding down...airball...Yao never attempts to get position...

7:58 --- Sura brings it up after BOS make.....comeup the left side...Yao fighting for high position...BLount is pushing him out again...by the time Sura gets to the 3line left aide ...Yao is being fronted...LaFrenz is at the FT line shadowing to prevent the lob...Sura passes to Howard at the top of the key...LaFrenz jumps up to cover Howard....Meanwhile..Yao rolls thru the paint headed for the right side(whichis the way the ball is headed)....Howard passe to the right side 3line where Wesley is waiting....Yao goes for position onthe same side...Blount immediately fronts him.....Wesley sees this...heads back the other way over a Howard pick...Howard rolls toward baseline...gets the pass from Wesley as the defense doubles him...(note: Yao needs to watch how Howard did that roll...he was in perfect position for the pass after the pick) ...Yao is in the middle of the paint by now...Allen behind him...La Frenz darts in front of Yao, prevents the pass from Howard.....Blount is between Yao and Howard....Howard passes crosscourt to Tmac at the 3line...Tmac drains it....


7:20 --- Yao cause Blount to miss...Sura rebounds...Wes and Sura runthe break....one on each side....Howard gets downcourt to the post right side first...Tmac comes up right side elbow...Yao dad center top 3line...Sura tosses it to Tmac...who rifles it into Howard....Howard cant handle the pass...turnover...


7:03 --- Allen drives...Yao alters the shot...Tmac rebounds....TM brings it up....top center 3line...Yao just coming into the picture when Tmac drives...is covered up on left side outside the paint...passes to Sura left side 3line...Yao still above the FT line....Howard tries to post left side...Tmac sets a high pick for Sura...Yao is standing high post weakside....Blount is in front of him...Sura goes around Tmac pick...curls into the paint...Yao tries to cut over across the paint to open a lane for Sura's drive(intentional..he is clearing space for the drive to the basket)...Wesley's defender(Allen) sags off of him to block off Sura.....Wesley spots at the weakside 3 line ......Sura passes to Wes...misses the 3


6:37 --- Blount mkaes FT....Sura brings it up the middle...Yao top of the key sets pick for Tmac heade left...Allen breaks up pass to Tmac from Sura...

6:29 --- Tmac inbounds....Yao sets pick just above and outside the FT line for Sura to recieve the inbound....Yao steps out and sets pick to free up Tmac as soon as he steps onto the floor after the inbound....Tmac goes over the pick headed to the right acriss the FT line...Yao hangs weakside outside the paint as Sura passes to Tmac onthe right side....Tmac heads back left around pick set by Howard just inside the right side 3line....Tmac is cut off by Payton almost immediatley...leaving Sura open outside left side...at this time...Yao is setting up in the middle of the paint...Wesley is left side near baseline 3line....Sura swings it to him....this is the only time in this quarter that Sura misses what might have been a decent opportunity to get it into Yao...something to note....as the ball is getting to Sura...LaFrenz is heade towards Yao...kinda behnid and to the right of him....if Sura would not have swung the ball automatically to Wesley(who was WIDE OPEN)...he might have had time to get it into Yao before LaFrenz jumped over to double Yao......however..he didnt...and Wesley missed..


6:13 --- Payton drives baseline...runs into Yao....he pases to Allen onthe toehr side 3line..who passe to Blount inthe post...who passes to Pierce since Yao was all over him(Blount)....Pierce drives the lane and jumps into Yao....foul number 4.....he doesnt come back inthe rest of the 3rd......

If you mange to claim that Yao was robbed by his teammates from all this...you are TRUELY reaching.....the few times he tried to post...he was denied by the defense....the other times....he showed no inclination that they play even remotly involved him posting...just that one where he had good position(although he had Blount all over his back,and LaFrenz headed his way for a double)..and they went to Wesley for the 3...

 

Well said DV....I wouldnt think twice if someof these guys would at least mention specific plays when they criticize...then I could clip them and we could all see.....but they dont...and wont....

as for his assertion that some of us claim superior knowledge....well...that is easy to do when the others dont post like they actually have watched the game...and whenthey do..they dont seem to care to listen to reasonable explanations set forth by ppl who do show they know their ball...as someone who has played in organized leagues thru much of his youth...I can tell when someone doesnt understand the Xs and Os...it is very evident in their comments...

anyway..Im done for the night...thanks for speaking up...your posts in this thread have been a breath of fresh air.

 

Thanks for the effort. I couldn't stop laughing at myself for being stupid enough to actually read it all word by word(not it's a bad post, but because it's rather long) and I was also laughing at how you kept droping phrases to the effect of "being pushed out" or "standing around watching" to describe Yao. lol. am I convinced Sura loves to pass to Yao, it's Yao who suddenly disappears after a hot shooting half? I watched the game, and I know it's the other way around.
Seriously, intentionally freezing Yao out (which I don't think is the case) or not, Sura and Yao have yet to connect.

 

this may very well be true but still there may be something than that. remember the incidence yao told a chinese reporter... sura was down and yao went over and offered a hand, but sura ignored yao and stood up by himself. what was that all about? it doesn't look like as simple as "yet to connect".

 

People are talking about Sura
Barry,Scott,and Tmac didn't have troubles pass to Yao
don't tell me when they're on the floor
defenders didn't play D

 

Nice effort, but picking a stretch in which Yao didn't eastablish position much doesn't say much about post entry effectiveness. It needs to be measured not on the number of non post plays, but on the number of post plays.

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Sura has heart which is admirable and has made ppl his fans. I respect that, however, the Sura fans should acknowledge his reluctance/hesitation to make the obvious entry pass at times, as well as his ineptitude at shooting the 3 pointers, which IMO may lead to his hesitation to low post play. I think Sura will be dying to get the ball to Yao and shoot open 3s if he can shoot 3s at 40%. Unfortunitely he has yet to crack 30%. I wouldn't be too keen to run the low post play if I was Sura, it's like waiting to be embarrassed upong missing open 3s. Something that doesn't seem to bode well with such a proud guy like Sura.

Pointing out his weaknesses isn't saying Sura is a bad player, in fact, his energy is part of the Rockets fuel.

BTW, equating criticism to Sura's weaknesses as accusations of Sura's conspiracy against Yao propagated by YOFs, then try to act superior is getting old fast.

 

One more thing to add, if Sura can shoot the 3 pointers at below 30%, why can't he take the risk of passing the ball to Yao? It's not like Yao will miss 70% of his passes, while the rim will miss 70% of his threes. The "Yao can't establish secure catching position so Sura needn't to attempt passes" shows unrealistic expeactations. Nothing in basketball is 100% sure. If one is afraid of Tos as a point guard, he needs to quit playing as a point in the first place.

 

Im gonna assume that was in response to my post.....if so...you totally missed the point of the post

Several ppl in the last few pages where crying about Yao's lack of shots in the 3rd quarter......so to allow everyone to see what really happened with the Rockets during the stretch of the 3rd quarter that he was on the floor before being sat with his 4th foul at 6:03 in the 3rd, I did a step by step breakdown of the plays and player movements.

now...keeping up the assumption that you were responding to me, and that you are incorrectly attributing a motive for the post that is also incorrect, a apology will be gladly accepted.

are you man enough to admit you were wrong?


if you werent responding to me...then disregard everything I just wrote.

 

I have more of a problem with the play calling in the third. Yao took one shot at the beginning of the quarter (either blocked or fouled by Raef), and then was just a foul out there waiting to happen. The Celtics are taking it at Yao, and they're in Boston. The way i figure it, Yao should get a few touches in before the inevitable foul. The team didn't explore that option enough, and it's not like our guards were tearing down the nets. It was ugly, and the Celtics went on a huge run.

 

Yes I was responding to your post. However, I fail to see that why should I apologize for my interpretation of your post, when, 1, you did talk about Sura not passing to Yao on one play when he could've, and talked about Yao not getting the ball because of bad position or defense, which is about my point, post entry effectiveness. 2, there is no clear indication of your motive in the original post(like what you claime now as responding to Yao's lack of shots), it was said about rebuttal against "teammates robbing Yao", and I think post entry by Sura to Yao is a recurring theme in this setting. So maybe your post is meant for broader interpretation, but a narrower interpretation is also acceptable when there is no clear restrictive clause revealing the requirement for broader interpretation. Hope you're satisfied with my explanation.

 

You quoted Panda:
" Nice effort, but picking a stretch in which Yao didn't eastablish position much doesn't say much about post entry effectiveness. It needs to be measured not on the number of non post plays, but on the number of post plays. "
but you don't read what he said.
Let me spell it out.
1) When Yao did NOT post, there is no sense talking about post entry passes.
2) Go and find another stretch of time when Yao did post and discuss entry passes.